Paulo, for the average sailor in the typical boat on this thread, and not just 20-foot boats, 40 knots of wind is a lot of wind and can be dangerous. I've sailed Paloma through two force 10 storms (one in which we kept racing)exciting rides, with experienced, bluewater sailors. But far from sheltered waters, when the wind pipes above 40 knots and the seas start to build, you have to become a much more careful sailor if you don't shift your mindset, you will get in serious trouble.
I fully agree, but there is a difference in what you are saying and survival tactics. Or perhaps the problem is what survival tactics means to each sailor.
I don't want to incentive (by any means) people to go over their limits and I agree with you that 40K of wind is a lot of wind. But I think that you agree with me that an experienced sailor with an adequate boat will not have problems with 40k winds or with the seas normally associated with them.
I would also say that I have been in force 10 winds on non sheltered waters on my former boat, a Bavaria 36. Even if I had no necessity to take refuge in survival tactics, I would say that what you could do with the boat was limited by the conditions and that I would not chose to go to sea with that weather on that boat.
If I have remained with good memories of that day I will say that at the time, I was, as you have put it "on a different mind set". I was worried, very careful and afraid of worsening conditions.
There is a huge difference between the Bavaria 36 and the 15M steel boat that I was talking about and also, probably, Armand, the skipper of that boat was at the time, a more experienced sailor than I am now.
I just noticed you sail a C27 too AL. Man, you're smart.
Heh-heh. Thanks for the great explanations.
One question I still have for Dog is...when you say that the JSD negates the need for active steering of the boat...what's happening at the helm to protect the rudder? Assuming you don't have AH - do you lash the wheel/tiller to protect it from the scenario AL lays out above?
Hey Dog, as you can see, I'm slowly and painfully starting to become a JSD believer. But what about the steering question above?
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Wow, leg - that's a great question. Trying to turn around with the JSD would be a bear I'd think. I hope someone can answer that one.
(PS - I just figured out what PCP's avatar is...the ship in the wonderful B-movie "Jason and the Argonauts". My kids were just watching that a couple of nights ago and I saw that shot. Nice.)
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- I just figured out what PCP's avatar is...the ship in the wonderful B-movie "Jason and the Argonauts". My kids were just watching that a couple of nights ago and I saw that shot. Nice.
No, but I think it is better than that. That eye is the eye of a real boat. The boat is on a museum, but it is not that old. I mean than the Argonauts, certainly older than the movie.
You know, sailors respect traditions so those eyes were used for thousands of years to avoid sea dangers. My first boat, a 80 year traditional boat (now would be more than a hundred years old ) still had beautiful eyes. Even now I kind of feel a bit uncomfortable sailing a blind boat
Well, considering that the JSD is designed to be a device of last resort and that once deployed, the crew is supposed to hunker down in the cabin after it is deployed, there really shouldn't be much need for MOB recovery when using one.
Quote:
Originally Posted by legarots
What MOB procedure would you use with a JSD deployed?
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Telstar 28
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You know what the first rule of sailing is? ...Love. You can learn all the math in the 'verse, but you take
a boat to the sea you don't love, she'll shake you off just as sure as the turning of the worlds. Love keeps
her going when she oughta fall down, tells you she's hurting 'fore she keens. Makes her a home.
—Cpt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity (edited)
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So then that brings us back to the question of steering the boat. If it's actively sailing and you're hunkered down below - how do you handle the steerage/rudder protection?
Look at AdamL's hydrodynamic kung fu on the previous page for the impetus behind the question.
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Last edited by smackdaddy; 01-22-2010 at 07:44 PM.
You're making the mistaken assumption that the boat is actively sailing... it's not... it's being held at a very slow speed and steering isn't necessary. The bridle the drogue is attached to the boat by keeps the boat stern to the waves. There are specific requirements for the drogue bridle and attachment points.
The common misunderstanding is that the breaking wave does the damage... this is generally not the case. From Don Jordan's website:
Quote:
A final misconception is the belief that a breaking wave "strikes" the boat and that the moving water in the crest does the damage. Actually, the boat is lifted by the forward face of the wave with no impact. When it reaches the breaking crest the boat velocity is close to the wave velocity. The crest water is aerated and has little damage potential. Damage to the boat is incurred when the boat is thrown ahead of the wave and impacts the green water in the trough. The leeward side and the deck are struck. A careful reading of "Fastnet Force Ten" and "Fatal Storm" will confirm this conclusion.
Since the boat is almost stationary relative to the wave, there is little risk of damage to the rudder. This is also why there is little risk of damage to the boat by a pooping wave. The rudder isn't really at any risk at all.
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Sailingdog
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Telstar 28
New England
You know what the first rule of sailing is? ...Love. You can learn all the math in the 'verse, but you take
a boat to the sea you don't love, she'll shake you off just as sure as the turning of the worlds. Love keeps
her going when she oughta fall down, tells you she's hurting 'fore she keens. Makes her a home.
—Cpt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity (edited)
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Okay - but something still doesn't jive. For example, the statement that the boat velocity is the same as the wave (breaking water) velocity - especially if held at 1-2 knots with the drogue... How can that be? Is the forward velocity of breaking water 1-2 knots? Why do companionway hatches get stove in from pooping (like with Skip A almost had happen to him on "Wildflower")?
Anyway, I'll let AdamL address this and the forces on the rudder, because I don't know. He seems to understand hydrodynamics far better than us.
Also, I thought I read somewhere that one should be steering with the JSD - but, I'll have to look through my reading material on it.
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This was one of the references I was recalling - and it does say you need to steer with a drogue - but not with the JSD...
Quote:
A drogue, on the other hand, is deployed off the stern. There are two basic types of drogues. The low-drag, speed-limiting drogues are sized to allow the boat to maintain three to six or perhaps even seven knots in conditions where it might otherwise be driven well above hull speed. The slower speed prevents a boat from surfing down wave fronts. With the stern held down, the chance of pitchpoling is reduced. When speed is controlled in this way, yawing is reduced, making it easier to keep the boat from turning beam to the waves. The low-drag speed-limiting drogue is an active device. It makes steering easier, but it does not eliminate the need for the crew to be in the cockpit steering the boat. Most drogues are of this type.
The medium-pull drogue is also deployed off the stern, but it brings the boat almost to a stop. Downwind drift will be 1 to 1 1/2 knots in storm conditions, which is not fast enough to steer. The designer of the Jordan Series Drogue recommends that the crew go below and strap themselves in. The medium-pull drogue is a passive device like the parachute anchor.
So now, if what you're saying about the hydrodynamics is correct - that is that there is no possibility of rudder damage due to breaking waves on the stern...then I guess that's that. Still, what do you do with the tiller/wheel?
BTW - here's a video that makes me question the boat/wave velocity issue. Watch the breaker smack the quarter of the boat near the start, then stern of the boat right at the end. That looks like some force to me. And this boat is actively sailing with a tri-sail and a storm jib. Hold it in place at 1-2 knots and what happens to that force?
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I mean than the Argonauts, certainly older than the movie.
