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Go Back   SailNet Community > Out There > Vessels Lost, Missing, or in Danger
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  #101  
Old 07-10-2013
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Re: 6 Americans, 1 Brit vanish at sea

Quote:
Originally Posted by hellosailor View Post
Sheathing a wood boat in frg, dunno. I've heard folks with professional reputations say that's guaranteed to TRAP water and compromise what is left of the hull. And if the glass cracks for any reason, you're helixed. (PG-13 acronym.) Not to mention, unless they vacuum bagged the boat or rotated the hull upside down...really, glassing something that big while restraining gravity?? I think the phrase is "Yeah, but..."
TD's quite right - sheathing a wooden hull in fg is a last-ditch desperate measure to save a hull and can only be done after the boat is properly dried out, otherwise it simply peels off in sheets.

Maybe Nina wasn't in boat-show condition, but to counter the slightly alarmist view quoted by Jon, a couple of points here:

1. If the boat is bouncing off waves (and it would be) there is going to be plenty of pressure on the mast steps especially the foremast step... but I notice she had aluminium masts. If she was designed to carry timber masts, the original mast steps would be oversized for alloy ones. Assuming for a sec that the step did fail, in traditional boat design the piece of solid timber immediately under it is called the keel and runs the full length of the boat. ie. the mast isn't going anywhere. Sure, unfair pressure on the mast step/keel could cause the garboard seams to widen, but... hang on a sec.. this boat is sheathed! Not likely, sorry. Will water rush in? Sure.. but slowly - meaning a boat that size won't sink instantly and, if the bilge pumps are working, might even stay afloat for a long time. Certainly more than long enough to trigger the EPIRB, use the Sat Phone and/or get into a liferaft. (Remember the "Bounty"?)

2. Being dismasted and holed by a mast is a more likely way to sink rapidly, but I notice from the photos that she's keel-stepped and these are aluminium masts. I've seen plenty of dismastings in my life and in all cases I've seen, keel-stepped alloy masts bend and snap - they don't "break off" and fall over the side like a timber mast might; not immediately in any case... and if she'd been holed and sunk in this way (known as a "loss of structural integrity" ), there'd be wreckage floating around for the search parties to find.

You can get "rogue waves" in any ocean and most certainly in the Tasman - and common enough that they're almost an occupational hazard. I'd like to think she's been dismasted and blown far outside the search area, but it is quite possible she was simply overwhelmed by a rogue wave and went down in one piece. Perhaps time will tell..
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Last edited by Classic30; 07-10-2013 at 08:46 PM.
  #102  
Old 07-10-2013
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Re: 6 Americans, 1 Brit vanish at sea

Nina's , deckhouse , is a very similar in design to the Smeeton's Tzu Hang which was twice pitchpoled in the Pacific while attempting to round Cape Horn. On both occasions the structure was torn away and had it not been for John Guzzwell's intervention (he was crewing) the Tzu Hang would have probably gone down. I'm not saying that would have been a quick sinking but it shows how "easily" timber deck houses can be torn away.
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  #103  
Old 07-10-2013
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Re: 6 Americans, 1 Brit vanish at sea

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Originally Posted by tdw View Post
Nina's , deckhouse , is a very similar in design to the Smeeton's Tzu Hang which was twice pitchpoled in the Pacific while attempting to round Cape Horn. On both occasions the structure was torn away and had it not been for John Guzzwell's intervention (he was crewing) the Tzu Hang would have probably gone down. I'm not saying that would have been a quick sinking but it shows how "easily" timber deck houses can be torn away.
..and if that happens during a knockdown the boat would certainly go down quickly.

But, again, you'd expect to find some wreckage (cabin cushions, life jackets, galleyware, that sort of floating stuff)..
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  #104  
Old 07-10-2013
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Re: 6 Americans, 1 Brit vanish at sea

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Long View Post
If this and the other things Tompkins said are true, and I have no reason to doubt them, I retract and rethink everything I have said about this event here.
Well then would you and others like to re-visit my Post 48 where I said:

Quote:
Are you sure?

The TV detective in me looks at the photo of pulling the old engine out and wonders why they would have cleaned the engine bay under the engine after unbolting it from its mounts and before hoisting it? And where are the mounts? Took them off, cleaned it up and dropped the engine back in for a photo?

I must be getting far too cynical.
If they were hard pressed on the hull maintenance how can we be sure the engine was the brand new one shown in packing, or what looks like an old but rebuilt one in the clean engine room looking like its being put in, not taken out.

I'm not being accusatory... I just think the photo in Post 35 doesnt gell and need professional eyes to have a lookie


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  #105  
Old 07-10-2013
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Re: 6 Americans, 1 Brit vanish at sea

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Originally Posted by Roger Long View Post
Yes, and in four out of the five demonstrations of liferaft use by inflating just expired rafts for repack, the raft failed to inflate.

BTW, I'm getting kind of tired of the insistence by "Clueless" that we all recognize spontaneous disintegration of the old hull being the "most probable cause". All scenarios are possible and we won't know unless a survivor or definitive piece of debris shows up.

We can however, rank the probabilities even if roughly. That ranking will change with certain assumptions. If you assume that the EPIRB would work, as they usually do, things sudden and catastrophic move up the list.

Historically, speaking as one who has studied large sailing vessel losses fairly extensively over the years, structure failure due to normal wave action alone seldom happens suddenly enough in vessels of this size that a working EPIRB could not have been activated. It can't be ruled out but would be less likely in a vessel that has been maintained as well as it appears to have been than in many that have gone down slowly.

Even the infamous Raw Faith, built by a know nothing out of 8 foot pallet boards scabbed together with roofing tar, flooded and floated for hours gradually leaking until the crew were taken off in the chopper.

Clueless a? Well mr. Architect i took my opinions from peer reviewed articles dealing with the surveying and degradement of wooden boats. I believe a qoute was something like, "even surveyors with decades of experience cannot be certain of a wooden vessels structual integrity."

So we have either a rouge wave or hull failure. Otherwise explain to me why no flotsam has been found, no epirb was activated, and no mayday call was sounded. Even if you had 3 minutes with seven people im betting one would act in a life saving manner. Another poker with decades of experience who has become jaded to the backed up fact presenting of a youth. I backed up my opinions with science and speculation. I was only wrong on the haul out because i did not double check what another poster stated.

Clueless. Good one longwinded.
  #106  
Old 07-11-2013
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Re: 6 Americans, 1 Brit vanish at sea

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Originally Posted by Harborless View Post
Clueless a? Well mr. Architect i took my opinions from peer reviewed articles dealing with the surveying and degradement of wooden boats. I believe a qoute was something like, "even surveyors with decades of experience cannot be certain of a wooden vessels structual integrity."
Wow! That's a mighty broad ass-covering statement if ever there was one... and quoted by someone who himself states he has no experience in the subject he speaks about.

Jeepers!!
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  #107  
Old 07-11-2013
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Re: 6 Americans, 1 Brit vanish at sea

Do you not understand what a peer reviwed article is? I did not say anything. Marine scientist, wood boat professional builders and surveyors and naval architects did.

Do some research, i did. Start with peer reviwed since you obviously have no idea what the words mean.
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Re: 6 Americans, 1 Brit vanish at sea

Lol its really laughable. Qoutes by someone, meaning me, when i said it was from a PEER REVIWED ARTICLE. Seriosuly some of you and your abhorrence to young posters posting educated fact are really annoying. This is why i stay in off topic 90% of the time. Clean the termites out of your block head why dont you?
  #109  
Old 07-11-2013
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Re: 6 Americans, 1 Brit vanish at sea

Quote:
Originally Posted by Harborless View Post
Do you not understand what a peer reviwed article is? I did not say anything. Marine scientist, wood boat professional builders and surveyors and naval architects did.

Do some research, i did. Start with peer reviwed since you obviously have no idea what the words mean.
Harborless, google Roger Long Naval Architect, he may be one of those peers who do the reviewing. There are some people on here that you are not qualified to get into an argument with about boat design Roger Long, Bob Perry, and maybe a couple of others that do not put it out there quite as much. The best thing you could do is listen and learn. You know a little about a lot of things, and you are learning, but one learns more by listening than by getting into pissing matches with those who have the T-Shirt on a been there done that and got paid very very well for it basis.
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  #110  
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Re: 6 Americans, 1 Brit vanish at sea

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkofSeaLife View Post
Well then would you and others like to re-visit my Post 48 where I said:



If they were hard pressed on the hull maintenance how can we be sure the engine was the brand new one shown in packing, or what looks like an old but rebuilt one in the clean engine room looking like its being put in, not taken out.

I'm not being accusatory... I just think the photo in Post 35 doesnt gell and need professional eyes to have a lookie


Mark
I'm inclined to take Steve Darden's word for it... (although he does get the brand wrong, calling it a CAT instead of a Cummins, so I suppose you may still be entitled to your reasonable doubt (grin))

From the LATITUDE 38 article I cited:

Quote:

Steve and Dorothy Darden are former Tiburon residents who had the custom Morrelli & Melvin 52 catamaran Adagio built for them in New Zealand in 2000, and have been spending most of the time since cruising between Alaska and Tasmania. The Dardens became friends with the Dyches while in New Zealand last year, and were among the last to see them alive.

"When we arrived at Whangarei, New Zealand, from New Caledonia to have some work done, Niña was already there," remembers Dorothy Darden. "David, who runs a big vessel for the oil industry in I believe Brazil and works three months and then gets three month off, was at work at the time. But we became good friends with Rosemary and her son David Jr., 17, who were staying on the anchored-out schooner. They spent Christmas with us, came to my birthday party, and had dinner on our boat.

"David came back sometime in March," Dorothy continues, "and in March or April he and their crew set off for Australia. Unfortunately, Niña's engine broke down. So they returned to Opua, ordered a new engine, and David returned to work in Brazil. When David came back, the new Caterpillar engine was installed, and the boat prepared for sea. They would ultimately clear out of Opua for Newcastle, but the day before they left they drove down to Whangarei to say goodbye to us and others."
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