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Go Back   SailNet Community > Out There > Vessels Lost, Missing, or in Danger
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  #121  
Old 07-11-2013
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Re: 6 Americans, 1 Brit vanish at sea

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Long View Post
How could he possibly be right? NONE of us here could be "right" with the information currently.

The process of speculation can contribute to the safety of all of us it done properly. However, the search for approval or getting the consensus of a forum align with your thinking is counter productive to that aim.
Obviously, no one knows. That's why I said, "It seems..," translated as, "most likely." In this thread and in the ensuing research by posters, more information about the boat has emerged. The new information suggests that the hull was in questionable condition. Speculating on the most likely scenario based on unfolding facts is certainly a worthwhile exercise and one that serves to elicit knowledge that is the essence of these types of discussions. We could all be wrong. It's the exchange of ideas that counts. Digging one's heels in and personal attacks over speculative opinion is silly. From what has come forth, I believe at this point that the failing structure of this boat has become apparent and very likely had something to do with her loss... if indeed she IS lost, which is itself still speculation.
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  #122  
Old 07-11-2013
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Re: 6 Americans, 1 Brit vanish at sea

Ill post one more time to this forum until the next time i have an actual question which cannot be answered by myself, my literature, my neighbors, or my abilities to cut and paste.


MAYBE the reason i come accross as an ******* is because the last two years posting here ive been treated like a dumb irresponsible young no nothing with no insight or intelligence worthy of being heard by ye old sailing masters.

Maybe all the disrespect, arrogance, know it all attitude and baseless assumptions have contributed to me having a built up defensive tone which comes accross as being an *******.

Im an ******* on sailnet gen discuss because you all made me that way because i stopped caring months ago. Im simply a producut of my enviornment. This is why my inbox gets filled with all these thank yous and well dones and keep it ups bc i suppose others do not want the public ridicule while im still young and stubborn enough to say no, thats incorrect, and speak out.

What i dont know i ask, what i dont understand i research. Unlike many here that when confronted with fact and truths can only reply with atleast they can spell better than me.

Well congrat u frigginlations.well done. At least i am ALWAYS willing to learn anf change my opinions based on facts and logics not just beat out of my old tired and worn out corner.

Ill be an ******* and you all can be disrespectful, arrogant, and many times wrong. Seems we all enjoy it the most.

See you in a few months, or not, whatever.

Flame away. I wont be reading.

Out out out.
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  #123  
Old 07-11-2013
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Re: 6 Americans, 1 Brit vanish at sea

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Originally Posted by Harborless View Post
Im an ******* on sailnet gen discuss because you all made me that way ...
This one deserves to be saved for posterity... (grin)

Time to go sailing, dude... Good luck to you...
  #124  
Old 07-11-2013
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Re: 6 Americans, 1 Brit vanish at sea

Seems to me that way too often we insist on being CORRECT (he shouted). Yet so often it turns out, now this is a surprise, we are only partly so. Of course this applies to "we" as in everyone except me.
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  #125  
Old 07-11-2013
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Re: 6 Americans, 1 Brit vanish at sea

Quote:
Originally Posted by tdw View Post
Seems to me that way too often we insist on being CORRECT (he shouted). Yet so often it turns out, now this is a surprise, we are only partly so. Of course this applies to "we" as in everyone except me.
Of course!.. I could be wrong, but Mods are ALWAYS right...
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  #126  
Old 07-11-2013
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Re: 6 Americans, 1 Brit vanish at sea

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkofSeaLife View Post
Thanks for the reviewed thoughts on the engine. I'll take it as read. Though I am stuffed if I know why anyone would spend $20,000 (remember its in NZ so very expensive) on a new engine but skimp on other things like the FG skinning. UNLESS the owner thought the FG and underlying hull was in good condition. I.e. if he was going a quick fix 'on the cheap' he wouldnt have put in a brand new donk.
FG skinning is not necessarily 'a quick fix on the cheap' (it's neither quick nor cheap) - it's simply a more economical solution than having to replace all the planking on the entire boat which, on a boat like Nina, would make a $20,000 engine look like spare change. In many cases, even knowing it's a one-way street heading down-hill, it's the only way to ensure the boat stays around for just a little bit longer - years? decades? who knows? All things considered, it does seem that they all thought the FG and underlying hull was in good condition otherwise surely they would not have left in the first place.

I still think that if the sheath failed catastrophically, there'd be wreckage on the surface... but that doesn't mean to say some localised unseen and unreachable failure didn't send the yacht to the bottom quickly and in one piece...
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  #127  
Old 07-12-2013
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Re: 6 Americans, 1 Brit vanish at sea

While I am certainly not anything like the type of expert that Bob Perry or Roger Long is, and I really am not certain at all of what may or may not have been the issue with the hull of the Nina, I would think that if the hull planking was unsound it could have been repaired for less than the FG wrap would have cost. I know that hull planks can be scarfed if only a portion is bad, and they can be replaced entirely if the whole plank is rotted. Obviously a wrap in FG is not going to fix a rotted and warped or sagging keel, in fact it might just make it worse by allowing water to become trapped behind the sheathing.

We may never know the whole story, and it would seem that some sort of enquiry into this should be done by those with far more knowledge of the actual situation than is available to most of us here on SN.
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  #128  
Old 07-12-2013
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Re: 6 Americans, 1 Brit vanish at sea

I believe you've made a Double Clanger!

Quote:
Originally Posted by mark2gmtrans View Post
We may never know the whole story,
Unless the boat turns up with the crew we will never know anything much of the story.


Quote:
Originally Posted by mark2gmtrans View Post

it would seem that some sort of enquiry into this should be done by those with far more knowledge of the actual situation than is available to most of us here on SN.
I most strongly disagree and point you to the Bounty thread on this forum which was writ by each of us numbskull cruisers but could have been the guideline of the Coast Guard inquiry hearings. We covered, investigated and exposed every salient point of that disaster, except maybe a few that would couldn't get without direct questioning of witnesses.

Don't dismiss the power if the brains of those on this forum! Don't dismiss the power of the internet. Dont relegate us to lower beings just because you dont personally know us. Further don't pedestal the 'authorities' or those interests of the families etc who have an agenda. We forumers have no agenda except to exercise the mind, pass the time and chew the fat...


Mark
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  #129  
Old 07-12-2013
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Re: 6 Americans, 1 Brit vanish at sea

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkofSeaLife View Post
I believe you've made a Double Clanger!



Unless the boat turns up with the crew we will never know anything much of the story.




I most strongly disagree and point you to the Bounty thread on this forum which was writ by each of us numbskull cruisers but could have been the guideline of the Coast Guard inquiry hearings. We covered, investigated and exposed every salient point of that disaster, except maybe a few that would couldn't get without direct questioning of witnesses.

Don't dismiss the power if the brains of those on this forum! Don't dismiss the power of the internet. Dont relegate us to lower beings just because you dont personally know us. Further don't pedestal the 'authorities' or those interests of the families etc who have an agenda. We forumers have no agenda except to exercise the mind, pass the time and chew the fat...


Mark
Mark,

I am certainly not dismissing the brain power of the group here, and how you could even imagine that I would be relegating us to lower beings? I am one of the lower beings in that case, and I tend to (like most people do ) think highly of myself and my own opinions. What I am saying is that we do not have all of the information. We would, in the event we were to do a proper investigation of this matter, need to send people out to interview in person those who were aboard the vessel Nina shortly before her departure. We would need to investigate the claim that some have made about her engine replacement, in which outright speculation was that somehow Captain Dyche put a different engine aboard her than the one shown in the photos. We would need to interview the meteorologists, to get a full story on the weather that day, and many other things.

Now if you would like to fund this investigation, perhaps you would care to pay me to go down and investigate it, I would contract my brother who was an investigator for a sheriff's department here in the states for many years, and if we were well paid, we would be able to get a lot closer to the truth. If no one is willing to pay others to do the investigation, then it will either remain as pure speculation, conjecture, and theory, because without doing all of the background work you just cannot have more than that, things have to be done right or you have 1000's of people just guessing at what happened.

I have not read the Bounty story on here, so I cannot comment on that, but it does not surprise me that many would say that the forum here did a good job. There are a lot of very knowledgeable people here, all of us at times have some insight and working together we can accomplish much. What we cannot do seated here in front of our respective computers is go out on the docks where Nina was berthed and interview mechanics, yard workers, and others who were in physical contact with crew and vessel in the days before the vessel sailed out of port.

Now, we can come up with a lot of good theories, but we are a bit short of wreckage, debris, or other evidence that she even went down. I recall not long ago a jackass of a skipper who was sailing along without any radios or commo gear for something like three months while people looked high and low for him and the crew aboard the "missing" vessel. Then one day the goober sails into port and is surprised that people were looking for him, not that I am saying that is what happened here, but it would be better than the alternative. So, in the absence of debris, wreckage, or a survivor or seven to tell us what happened, indirect investigation answers nothing conclusively.

Mark
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  #130  
Old 07-12-2013
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Re: 6 Americans, 1 Brit vanish at sea

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkofSeaLife View Post
...I most strongly disagree and point you to the Bounty thread on this forum which was writ by each of us numbskull cruisers but could have been the guideline of the Coast Guard inquiry hearings. We covered, investigated and exposed every salient point of that disaster...
While I enjoyed the Bounty thread and learned a great deal from the what-if speculation, to characterize it as "investigation" is a real overreach. Most of it was speculation. Some of it was commentary on facts brought out by others who were doing the real investigation.

I'm not going to reread the thread to confirm this, but I cannot recall any actual investigation done by Sailnetters. Aside from the occasional contributions from naval architects and delivery captains who had actually been aboard the boat, the vast majority of us lacked the first-hand observation and/or the qualifications to make any true investigative judgements on the Bounty case. Virtually all of it was reaction to news reports, which we all know can be unbalanced or flat-out inaccurate. There was no formal "coverage" or "exposť" of facts done by Sailnet - that was done by reporters who went to the scene, the team that held the hearings, and the film crews that broadcast the hearings. Sailnet members, by and large, merely provided commentary on the facts that others were uncovering (and that some - including I - were making up through their speculation).
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