6 Americans, 1 Brit vanish at sea - Page 9 - SailNet Community

   Search Sailnet:

 forums  store  


Quick Menu
Forums           
Articles          
Galleries        
Boat Reviews  
Classifieds     
Search SailNet 
Boat Search (new)

Shop the
SailNet Store
Anchor Locker
Boatbuilding & Repair
Charts
Clothing
Electrical
Electronics
Engine
Hatches and Portlights
Interior And Galley
Maintenance
Marine Electronics
Navigation
Other Items
Plumbing and Pumps
Rigging
Safety
Sailing Hardware
Trailer & Watersports
Clearance Items

Advertise Here






Go Back   SailNet Community > Out There > Vessels Lost, Missing, or in Danger
 Not a Member? 


Like Tree72Likes
Closed Thread
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #81  
Old 07-07-2013
MarkofSeaLife's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 2,548
Thanks: 33
Thanked 95 Times in 78 Posts
Rep Power: 5
MarkofSeaLife is on a distinguished road
Re: 6 Americans, 1 Brit vanish at sea

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Long View Post
It's the first thing that will go in my pocket if I see water over the floorboards.
There were three things of that category: Satellite phone; Spot; Epirb. None went off. I know people have mentioned that there's a chance the EPIRB malfunctioned (or not used as the boat is still afloat). However when you combine three things they didnt ALL malfunction. The only limiting factors to their use, as far as I can see, is that they could not be used. And one would think only a very fast catastrophe happened.

I know nothing about hogging on boats, nor wooden boats and have only sailed the Tasman sea where it laps up against Australia, so all I can think is that massive waves (They said 8 meters = 26 feet), not rogue waves as a breaking 26 footer is all it needs, and maybe assisted by even a minimum of hogging or other age related structural deficiency picked up in an 80 year hard racing life.
__________________
Sea Life
Notes on a Circumnavigation:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Quick reply to this message
  #82  
Old 07-07-2013
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 4,022
Thanks: 0
Thanked 142 Times in 126 Posts
Rep Power: 5
JonEisberg will become famous soon enough
Re: 6 Americans, 1 Brit vanish at sea

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Long View Post
The consensus on the Wooden Boat Forum, where one of the people has met the “Master Mariner”, is that this article is complete horse pucky. From what I’ve seen of the structure around the engine in the repowering pictures and gleaned in general, it smells that way to me.
What a pathetic embarrassment that 'article' is... The single "expert" the writer bothers to identify seems an ignorant tool, appearing to believe any ballasted yacht should be considered a "lead mine"... Here's the post you allude to regarding the "lifelong bluewater sailor" cited:

Quote:
To say I'm aghast at what that guy has said in a national paper would be a total understatement. He was a total sailing noob when I met him in the 90's, so I don't know where this' lifelong blue water sailor', 'master mariner' bull $%#@ comes from. Every boat with a 40% > thereabouts ballast ratio is unsafe? is going to sink? Well hello, checked the beneteau ballast ratio lately pal? Just ludicrous.
The ONLY reference I can find anywhere to this farmer/one-term mayor/lifelong bluewater sailor Russ Rimmington is an announcement he made almost a decade ago on some forum, that he had purchased an old 40' Albert Strange design that he was planning to rebuild after the completion of a circumnavigation aboard a different woodie... NOTHING since, I'll bet that boat still sits in this shed on his farm... One can only wonder what sort of ballast SHEILA II possessed, that prevents her from being classified as a "lead mine"...



Quote:

Nina, the 85-year-old American schooner presumed sunk in the Tasman with seven aboard, was unseaworthy and sailed by a traditionalist skipper who refused to have "gadgets" aboard, experts familiar with the boat say.

It had no long-range (SSB) radio and it appears its emergency locator beacon (Epirb) was not switched on.
Well, as the "expert" familiar with NINA is the owner of a 64' Sundeer, one can only imagine what his attitude towards the necessity of certain 'gadgets' might be... (grin)

Funny, the contemporary attitude seems to be moving toward sat phones as a legitimate replacement/alternative to SSB, but now the decision by Dyche to carry a sat phone & SPOT, and do without HF radio, is to be considered an example of NINA being "low on technology", huh? YCMTSU...

Really unfortunate, that many out there will consider this sort of second-guessing from a writer obviously lacking much familiarity with offshore sailing as being somehow authoritative...

Last edited by JonEisberg; 07-07-2013 at 09:46 AM.
Quick reply to this message
  #83  
Old 07-07-2013
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Oceanside CA
Posts: 700
Thanks: 5
Thanked 7 Times in 7 Posts
Rep Power: 13
jephotog is on a distinguished road
Re: 6 Americans, 1 Brit vanish at sea

I keep checking into this thread hoping for a reason to celebrate.
cruisingdream likes this.
__________________
Jordan
West Wight Potter 14 "Lemon Drop"
Oceanside CA
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
.
Quick reply to this message
  #84  
Old 07-07-2013
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Merritt Island, Fl.
Posts: 61
Thanks: 2
Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts
Rep Power: 2
Dauntless Brent is on a distinguished road
Re: 6 Americans, 1 Brit vanish at sea

Wow! I can not believe the amount of engineers and wood scientists on this site. I am truly privileged to be here on the same site as you. Truth be told, this whole thread has ticked me off. The amount of speculation here is something to behold. Let's face the facts. NONE of us knows what happened to the Nina and her crew, other than she/they are missing. It's a sad story. What we all should be learning from this is that the sea can in fact be temperamental. No matter how well we prepare, no matter what type of boat/ship/yacht, how well outfitted, knowledgeable Captain, knowledgeable crew, bad things can in fact happen. There are inherent dangers involved, (hence, the songs, stories, poems) we see it all of the time. My heart goes out to the family and friends of the crew members on the Nina. I can not imagine how hard this must be on them. Please be kind enough to not start bashing me on here. I too have my opinion, however, I'm not about to get into a knock down drag out fight over what MAY have happened.
arf145 and BluemanSailor like this.
Quick reply to this message
The Following User Says Thank You to Dauntless Brent For This Useful Post:
BluemanSailor (07-10-2013)
  #85  
Old 07-07-2013
bljones's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: South Coast Ontario
Posts: 8,216
Thanks: 33
Thanked 74 Times in 67 Posts
Rep Power: 8
bljones has a spectacular aura about bljones has a spectacular aura about
Re: 6 Americans, 1 Brit vanish at sea

Quote:
Originally Posted by Harborless View Post
You act like i want to be right. I said b4 i hoped i was wrong. I backed my logic.
No, you didn't.
You did, however, demonstrate a glaring lack of knowledge of the subject upon which you expounded.

I occasionally find Mr. Long egotistical, arrogant and argumentative, but he gets a pass because he is far more often right than wrong, and has the practical experience and credentials to back his play.
You, on the other hand...
Not so much.
__________________
It's 5 o'clock somewhere:


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Last edited by bljones; 07-07-2013 at 10:35 AM.
Quick reply to this message
  #86  
Old 07-07-2013
smurphny's Avatar
Over Hill Sailing Club
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Adirondacks NY
Posts: 2,924
Thanks: 67
Thanked 67 Times in 65 Posts
Rep Power: 6
smurphny is on a distinguished road
Re: 6 Americans, 1 Brit vanish at sea

This article gives a little hope that they may yet be found.

Text Message Indicates US Schooner Nina Nearing Australia: Claim
Dauntless Brent likes this.
__________________
Alberg 35: With a philosophical flourish Cato throws himself upon his sword; I quietly take to the ship.
Quick reply to this message
  #87  
Old 07-07-2013
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Merritt Island, Fl.
Posts: 61
Thanks: 2
Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts
Rep Power: 2
Dauntless Brent is on a distinguished road
Re: 6 Americans, 1 Brit vanish at sea

Lets hope that the info in the article is accurate. It would certainly explain why there has been no flotsam found. Also, if they don't fear that their lives are truly in danger, it would explain why no EPIRB was used.
Quick reply to this message
  #88  
Old 07-07-2013
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 4,022
Thanks: 0
Thanked 142 Times in 126 Posts
Rep Power: 5
JonEisberg will become famous soon enough
Re: 6 Americans, 1 Brit vanish at sea

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dauntless Brent View Post
Lets hope that the info in the article is accurate. It would certainly explain why there has been no flotsam found. Also, if they don't fear that their lives are truly in danger, it would explain why no EPIRB was used.
Unfortunatey, that article is 3 days old, there is no 'new' information offered beyond the hope expressed by the father that NINA is still afloat...
Quick reply to this message
  #89  
Old 07-09-2013
smurphny's Avatar
Over Hill Sailing Club
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Adirondacks NY
Posts: 2,924
Thanks: 67
Thanked 67 Times in 65 Posts
Rep Power: 6
smurphny is on a distinguished road
Re: 6 Americans, 1 Brit vanish at sea

A nice write-up on the lost Nina:

SCHOONER NINA: Missing and Presumed Sunk | Sailfeed
__________________
Alberg 35: With a philosophical flourish Cato throws himself upon his sword; I quietly take to the ship.
Quick reply to this message
  #90  
Old 07-10-2013
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 4,022
Thanks: 0
Thanked 142 Times in 126 Posts
Rep Power: 5
JonEisberg will become famous soon enough
Re: 6 Americans, 1 Brit vanish at sea

Some interesting and rather provocative observations/hypotheses from the legendary Warwick Tompkins, Jr, a guy who definitely knows wood boats, and was somewhat familiar with NINA...

Quote:

Two other Northern California sailors, 'Commodore' and Nancy Tompkins of the Mill Valley-based Wylie 38+ Flashgirl, also became friends with the Dyche family in New Zealand. Indeed, Commodore had a strong family connection with the 85-year-old schooner.

"When we got to Whangarei, I saw Niña – which, like Katherine Ross [who co-starred in the film The Graduate decades ago], is very distinctive – and immediately recognized her," says Commodore. "She was the schooner my father Warwick had navigated across the Atlantic Ocean to victory in 1929."

A narrow schooner with long overhangs, Niña was designed by the famed Starling Burgess and built by Ruben Bigelow on Monument Beach in Cape Cod in 1928. She was built specifically to win the 3,900-mile race from New York to Santander, Spain. And she did. When she arrived in Santander, a launch pulled alongside and a gentleman waved his cap and shouted, "Well sailed, Niña, I congratulate you. I am the King of Spain." Niña continued on to England where she became the first American vessel to win the prestigious 600-mile Fastnet Race.

"Here I am, 80 years old, walking around the interior of a boat that my father navigated across the Atlantic 85 years ago when he was just 30," says Commodore. "It was powerful experience." All the more so because Commodore is every bit his father's son.

"My father and I only really talked about the Niña once, and when we did, I came to the realization — as all sons must — that their fathers are not all-knowing. When I asked him how many degrees Niña tacked in, he said he didn't know. I found this astounding. Even though he hadn't sailed on the boat in more than 50 years, how could a vessel's navigator not remember how many degrees she tacked in? My father also wrote that 'Niña danced around like a dervish at sea.' He attributed this to the fact that she was cut away forward, whereas my father's Wanderbird, the former Elbe River pilot schooner that he sailed back and forth across the Atlantic and around Cape Horn, had a full forefoot."

Commodore is notorious for being critical of boats. "He can't help himself," explains his wife Nancy. For example, upon completing the delivery of our catamaran Profligate from Mexico to California some years ago, he wrote a single-spaced two-page letter listing the litany of reasons why we should sell the cat immediately.

Based on an hour aboard Niña, dinner with the couple, and another meeting, Tompkins said it was clear that both David and Rosemary had "totally embraced the schooner." But to his very critical eye, the schooner looked "a bit rundown" and "like an old boat that was struggling to be kept going." We asked him for specifics. "I noticed that a couple of the turnbuckles were slightly deformed. These were very large bronze turnbuckles that might have been the first the Merriman Brothers ever made. They needed to be replaced. David also explained to me that they had rebuilt the foundation of the forward mast — without unstepping it. I don't see how that could be done properly without unstepping the mast. Thirdly, he told me that they had sheathed the entire hull, and I believe the keel, in a quarter inch of fiberglass. 'That's what enabled us to do this trip,' he told me. That suggests to me that the underlying 86-year-old hull was not in the best condition."

We asked Commodore to speculate on what might have gone wrong on the schooner.

"The first thing that occurs to me is that there was still something wrong with the base of the foremast, and that under the tremendous compression of heavy weather, it opened up the garboards. That would sink the boat in a hurry. The second thought is that maybe one of the deformed turnbuckles had failed, causing the big aluminum main mast to fall, fill with water and, still attached to the boat, ram a big hole in the hull. Or the butt could smash a large hole in the hull. A distant third possibility is that some of the fiberglass sheathing no longer adhered to the hull and led to some kind of hull failure."


These theories are certainly plausible. For instance, about 25 years ago San Diego sailmakers Paul and Susan Mitchell took off across the Pacific aboard their 61-ft wood schooner White Cloud. Without warning, her hull opened up in moderate conditions in the Coral Sea, and she sank within minutes. They survived to buy a smaller aluminum sloop and cruise her for many years, and more recently have taken to cruising the canals of Europe.

When we suggested that Niña might have sunk as a result of a collision with a whale or container, Commodore dismissed the possibilities. "You have to be fatalistic about those things if you're going to go to sea, so it's counterproductive to think about them." We're perplexed by his reasoning.

Is there any hope for the crew of the Niña? It's true that the Tasman Sea is large and not home to many vessels. Indeed, one poster to a report on SFGate.com said he'd been on a fishing boat in the Tasman Sea that lost all power, and drifted helplessly for a month or so before being stumbled upon by a sailboat. Indeed, when we started Latitude in the late '70s, and when EPIRBs were much less common and reliable, it was not that rare for boats or crews of boats in liferafts to survive unheard of for a month or more.

The biggest mystery to us is why no EPIRB signal has been received. It suggests three possibilities: 1) There was some failure so catastrophic that nobody had time to get to the EPIRB, which had to be manually activated; 2) the EPIRB went down with the vessel so quickly that there was no time for the signal to get out; 3) the EPIRB battery was dead and/or there was some other problem with the EPIRB.

While the chances of the Niña or her crew being found are becoming more slim by the day, we, like the Dardens, continue to think positively.

- latitude / richard

Latitude 38 - 'Lectronic Latitude



Based on this and other photos of Niña taken by Steve Darden, the schooner didn't appear ready for the front row at St. Tropez, but she looked better than a lot of wooden boats we've seen out cruising. The exterior, of course, only gives limited insight to the conditions of the structure of a vessel.
© 2013 Steve Darden
Quick reply to this message
Closed Thread

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

By choosing to post the reply above you agree to the rules you agreed to when joining Sailnet.
Click Here to view those rules.

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the SailNet Community forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
Please note: After entering 3 characters a list of Usernames already in use will appear and the list will disappear once a valid Username is entered.
User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

 
Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may post attachments
You may edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Hi from a Brit abroad! britmick Introduce Yourself 1 10-21-2012 11:41 PM
Hi from Brit Newbie Sailorsteve Introduce Yourself 2 07-25-2012 12:46 PM
FELLOW AMERICANS SHIMSHON General Discussion (sailing related) 9 09-21-2001 05:08 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 08:34 PM.

Add to My Yahoo!         
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.1
(c) Marine.com LLC 2000-2012

The SailNet.com store is owned and operated by a company independent of the SailNet.com forum. You are now leaving the SailNet forum. Click OK to continue or Cancel to return to the SailNet forum.