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  #91  
Old 11-09-2013
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

I went to the saltydawg rally web site and listened to the daily radio logs they have recorded. The Morgan 416 that requested rescue was on the recording. They reported taking on water beyond the capacity of their pumps and at least one crew member seasick to the point of uncontrollably vomiting blood.

Seems to be well beyond queasy.
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  #92  
Old 11-09-2013
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Paolo, you need to come visit Texas and a few other states to understand my comment. We actually have regulations up to our ears, probably much like in Europe. Which has led to political upheaval intent on destroying government, first the national and then the state level. There are many who believe in the "self made man" myth and live by a "frontier" mentality. Being a a member of society is secondary to being a free man, but always responsible for you self. It is like the slogan from the Revolutionay War - "Live free or die."
John
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  #93  
Old 11-09-2013
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Quote:
Originally Posted by ccriders View Post
In Texas, we call that the nanny state and many argue it will lead to the decline of the species.
John

Believe it or not. Some of us in California call it that too.
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  #94  
Old 11-09-2013
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tempest View Post
You probably have personal experience with crews, that informs your preference.

But, you know it takes a little more than just test taking to get a Master's Ticket. Correct me if I'm wrong, but a Trip to Bermuda and back from the eastern US could qualify someone for a Yachtmaster Ocean credential (Within 10 years. )
While a CG master 100T, near coastal would require 720 total days of which 360 must be near coastal
with 90 days of recent sea time beyond the Boundary line.
No intent to argue the merits of one over the other. Other than to say that it's more than sitting down and taking a test..
The USCG 100 ton ticket is a joke internationally. It can be gotten by anyone who fakes sea time and takes a course on how to pass the test; there is rarely a verification process. It is not valid in any other country and does not equal a certificate of competency, it is only a permit to operate vessels certified by the USCG.
I know nothing about the RYA system other than it is recognized in the industry as the standard for capable and qualified mariners.
On the other hand, my Commonwealth Pacific Islands Certificate of Competency as a Mate was a 25 hour examination after I operated as harbor pilot, docking/undocking all merchant vessels for a month, not some silly multiple choice exam.
I have worked under several unlimited master's certificates, the Commonwealth certificate and a USCG 200 ton Master's License from the USCG and can unequivocally state that the USCG paper is worthless as a testament to a person's knowledge and abilities.
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  #95  
Old 11-09-2013
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Quote:
Originally Posted by capta View Post
The USCG 100 ton ticket is a joke internationally. It can be gotten by anyone who fakes sea time and takes a course on how to pass the test; there is rarely a verification process. It is not valid in any other country and does not equal a certificate of competency, it is only a permit to operate vessels certified by the USCG.
I know nothing about the RYA system other than it is recognized in the industry as the standard for capable and qualified mariners.
On the other hand, my Commonwealth Pacific Islands Certificate of Competency as a Mate was a 25 hour examination after I operated as harbor pilot, docking/undocking all merchant vessels for a month, not some silly multiple choice exam.
I have worked under several unlimited master's certificates, the Commonwealth certificate and a USCG 200 ton Master's License from the USCG and can unequivocally state that the USCG paper is worthless as a testament to a person's knowledge and abilities.

Well, I guess, I've been told. Thanks for clearing that up.
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  #96  
Old 11-09-2013
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Sorry, I'm late to this party, but just want to offer a few comments, regarding what I see as a fair amount of misconception in this thread...

The 1500 and the SD did NOT depart at roughly the same time... While a few SD boats - CELEBRATION, DISTANT STAR departed well in advance of the majority of the SD fleet, the 1500 has been sailing in an entirely different weather situation... Dave/Auspicious and I had some discussion of this in the "Where do I sleep" thread a week ago...

Heed Dave's comments on the Salty Dawg... I know the Knowles' as well, they're very experienced, and have put together a very good program with the SD... It is a VERY loosely organized 'rally' in comparison to the 1500, they have always made it very clear their function is not to hold anyone's hand, everyone is responsible for making their own decisions re departures, and everything else... The Salth Dawg Rally definitely does NOT adhere to any sort of 'schedule', whatsoever...

I've only heard bits and pieces over the past two days, having been on the water myself... I left Annapolis Friday morning with a Cabo Rico 42, and just returned to the boat from the usual wonderful dinner in Coinjock...

I'm inclined to believe the conditions that the boats offshore saw might have been considerably more impressive than what's being reported... Our sail down the Bay yesterday and last night was fantastic, but featured a lot more breeze behind that front than was forecast... Talking with some boats here tonight in Coinjock, that were held up for a couple of days in Portsmouth waiting for a passage thru the damaged Great Bridge Lock, it sounded like the weather that passed thru the Tidewater in association with the latest front was pretty serious... And, based upon the kick-ass sail we had yesterday down to Smith Point, I'd believe it...

From what I understand, a Catana 46 was dismasted, and a Catalina 42 ("JAMMIN") has lost their steering...

As I said to Dave last week, I think the 1500 made the better call this year, leaving when they did... They've had a very fast trip, but some pretty challenging conditions for much of the way... When the crew of a boat like a Hylas 54 reports that "everything is absolutely soaked", you know it's been a pretty sporty ride, hard on the breeze. Good luck to all those out there, looks like another very broad area of gale conditions will develop from Hatteras to Canaveral by Wednesday.... I'm hoping to at least hop outside again on Tuesday from Morehead to Wrightsville, but even that might be cutting it close, we shall see, but I'm guessing I'll be inside the rest of the way from Little River to Charleston...

Anyway, sorry this is rather disjointed, haven't had much sleep since Annapolis :-) But based upon what I've seen and heard out on the water the past 2 days, I'm inclined to give some of these rally participants the benefit of the doubt, some of these recent weather features have been highly localized, variable, and intense...

btw, for those that haven't had the pleasure, a CR 42 on a broad reach in 30 knots of November breeze, it's like sailing a freight train, what a sweet ride... :-) We had the Bay mostly to ourselves yesterday, though we did pass one catamaran north of Cove Point who was motoring in those conditions, hugging the western shore, and flying no sail whatsoever...

Some people should just be shot... :-)
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Last edited by JonEisberg; 11-09-2013 at 10:19 PM.
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  #97  
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Quote:
They reported taking on water beyond the capacity of their pumps and at least one crew member seasick to the point of uncontrollably vomiting blood.

Seems to be well beyond queasy.
If in such a dire state of health I got to wonder why medical treatment was refused once ashore.

As I said before if they were taking on water then that could be a valid reason for a mayday. However if the boat is found afloat then their story wouldn't hold water. Couldn't resist the pun.
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  #98  
Old 11-10-2013
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

I think it is important to point out that not all rallies are the same or even similar. The 1500 and SD point this out as do events like Sail Indonesia which seems to be focussed on dealing with the country's incredible bureaucracy. The Pacific Puddle Jumpers is nominally a rally but you can leave from anywhere on the Pacific coast of the Americas (we went from Ecuador) whenever you want so long as you reach French Polynesia within a window of a few months.
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  #99  
Old 11-10-2013
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
I'm inclined to believe the conditions that the boats offshore saw might have been considerably more impressive than what's being reported... Our sail down the Bay yesterday and last night was fantastic, but featured a lot more breeze behind that front than was forecast...
And before anyone beats up the forecasters, the weather was quite odd. We don't often see cold fronts pushed along in front of a high instead of dragged along by a low. The high stalled and the cold front intensified over Tidewater Virginia and then drifted offshore to pound the boats out there. It was all very flaky. I don't think anyone got it right.

I agree that C1500 made the best call leaving Saturday although conditions have been sporty. I was recommending Sunday night into Monday morning which might have been late. Mid- to late-week turned out not to be so great. Everyone was trying to make conservative assessments but the weather simply didn't develop the way we expected.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
btw, for those that haven't had the pleasure, a CR 42 on a broad reach in 30 knots of November breeze, it's like sailing a freight train, what a sweet ride... :-)
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  #100  
Old 11-10-2013
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

This thread would have to be the biggest heap of stinking armchair excrement I have seen on Sailnet in a while.

Two boats we know very little about have gotten in trouble offshore in circumstances we know very little about. Thats the story. That and they were part of a rally.

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
You can have the best weather router in the world - but weather changes - as you've just pointed out. Then it comes down to the preparedness of the participants. If they aren't prepared - you have a serious problem.

Why not hold rallies to the same safety standards as races? It really makes little sense not to.
Standards??? Regulation??? From Mr BFS.......

Bite me.

Because cruising is not racing.

I go cruising to escape bureaucratic morons trying to tell me what to do. Thankyou very much but I will not be asking them to inspect my boat and grant me permission to take my boat offshore.

Two words.

Skippers Responsibility.

It begins and ends there.

Rallies can be fun. I didn't think they would be our cup of tea, but they have helped us build confidence, not because we expected other experienced boats to bail us out offshore, but because we got to chat with those guys before we went and we learn't a thing or two and when we got there those guys were also there to raise a glass and toast the fact that we had conquered challenges.
If any one let's a rally make decisions for them and follows blindly then they are an idiot and need to read the two words above. However if being in a rally every now and then makes us bad, irresponsible silly sailors then......

Bite me.

As for PCP charging us all, taxing and licensing sailors to the hilt......

Bite me.

That conversation annoy me and i have had it several times.

I personally think as a group sailors contribute enough to society, but this is the kind of wonderfully emotive topic that get's people all angry and righteous everytime some poor bastard punches his eprib.

Without getting political- I think you will find that the money spent rescuing sailors is insignificant compared to the money governments spend dealing with things like self imposed health issues, crime, etc etc. When everyone receives a bill for their burden on society then I will be open to sailors paying more.

BTW I am a RYA Yachtmaster (Offshore). So yes I have done safety and sea training and my boat currently meets ISAF CAT 1.

Yet there would be people on here who have none of this and are 100 times more suited than I to cross oceans.
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Last edited by chall03; 11-10-2013 at 07:40 AM. Reason: bad spelling
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