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  #121  
Old 11-10-2013
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
My point is that if someone is going to put on an organized, sponsored sailing event (be it rally or race) that is this big of an off-shore passage - there should be a high standard of safety that participants should adhere to.
A high standard of safety yes. That is a given, but who sets this standard? Who is responsible for ensuring any given boat is 'safe'? What you say sounds good on the surface, but the issue is that what you are fundamentally talking about is taking responsibility for safety away from the skipper and handing it to someone else. This creates a false sense of security, you get a CAT 1 bumper sticker and a piece of paper saying you have sat in a liferaft in a pool with your mates so therefore you are offshore safe.


Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
This is especially important in the case of a rally, where the notion of "cruising in a group" creates a false sense of security...which, in turn, creates undue risk for less prepared participants. This risk, therefore, is created by the organizers of the event - and can only be balanced by them requiring a higher standard of safety and preparedness (e.g. - ISAF regs).
I disagree that a rally 'creates a false sense of security'. I think anyone who is in a rallly to feel 'safe' when they otherwise wouldn't is an idiot. CAT 1 regs won't stop you being an idiot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
(PS - As "Mr. BFS", I have always advocated sailing big...pushing your envelope. Absolutely. But I've always advocated doing it safely. The bigger the sail, the higher your standards of safety and preparedness need to be. There's absolutely no conflict here. It's really just common sense...unless you want be believe an unprepared skipper should forever sail into serious trouble simply because he has the right to.)
The bigger the sail the higher my standards of safety are. I don't need ISAF, YA, RYA, Rally organisers to set them for me. These guys mean well but by their nature can only be a blunt instrument. I know the regs backwards, I have researched every aspect of them, and applied them as I believe appropriate to my boat, knowing it is my ass on the line.

Dress it up how you want, we differ on this Smack because you believes regulation equals safety. I don't necessarily.
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Last edited by chall03; 11-10-2013 at 07:36 PM.
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  #122  
Old 11-10-2013
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Quote:
Originally Posted by chall03 View Post
A high standard of safety yes. That is a given, but who sets this standard? Who is responsible for ensuring any given boat is 'safe'? What you say sounds good on the surface, but the issue is that what you are fundamentally talking about is taking responsibility for safety away from the skipper and giving it to a regulatory body.




I disagree that a rally 'creates a false sense of security'. I think anyone who is in a rallly to feel 'safe' when they otherwise wouldn't is an idiot. CAT 1 regs won't stop you being an idiot.


(PS - As "Mr. BFS", I have always advocated sailing big...pushing your envelope. Absolutely. But I've always advocated doing it safely. The bigger the sail, the higher your standards of safety and preparedness need to be. There's absolutely no conflict here. It's really just common sense...unless you want be believe an unprepared skipper should forever sail into serious trouble simply because he has the right to.)

The bigger the sail the higher my standards of safety are. I don't need ISAF, YA, RYA, Rally organisers to set them for me. These guys mean well but by their nature can only be a blunt instrument. I know the regs backwards, I have researched every aspect of them, and applied them as I believe appropriate to my boat, knowing it is my ass on the line.

Dress it up how you want, we differ on this Smack because you believes regulation equals safety. I don't necessarily.
You know me, Chall. I don't mind the disagreement at all.

Who sets the standard? ISAF is a great start. It's really pretty simple. And just like a race, it IS still up to the skipper, but the organizers - just like in a race - do some level of verification that the boats/skippers/crews are in compliance (spot checks, whatever...).

IF this "racing-level" standard of safety was an approach that rally organizers adopted - rallies would be invaluable in that they would become a great way to up the game of all participating cruisers.

As it is, it's essentially a sponsored crapshoot.

Again, my argument is putting absolutely nothing on you as an individual. My argument is putting the onus on the organizers of sponsored rallies. Period.
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  #123  
Old 11-10-2013
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

I have read through this whole thread and in all the finger pointing and blaming weak/scared crews boats not ready for the voyage and all, not one person has gotten the facts right. I love how people are so quick the judge others when they do not have a clue as to the facts. I have listened to these boats everyday on the SSB. I have heard the distress calls as they came in. I have a good friend on one of the boats towed in. So I will summarize.

First boat down a Cartalina 54? catamaran, lost mast, made it back in under their own power. Distress call but refused help just wanted CG aware.

Second boat down Braveheart. Injury broken arm. Distress call but made it in under their own after they found it unsafe for injured crew transfer.

Third boat down Alden 54 ketch, lost rudder, was towed to Chesapeake after drifting for 2 days.

Fourth boat down, Morgen 41 Outisland, Taking on water (beyond what pumps could keep up with), Bulkheads coming apart, severely sick crew. Crew of 4 air lifted to Elizabeth City

Fifth boat down, Hans Christen 38, lost mast, vessel still underway under their own power to Norfolk, No assistance given. Reported in this evening all is well aboard.

Sixth boat down, Catalina 42, lost rudder, waited 3 days for tow should be back in this evening. (I personally spoke with this skipper while at sea and he simply was not equipped for makeshift repairs.)

Seventh boat down Catalina 38, lost steering and engine. tried to make Bermuda but had to give up with no help from private tow (their first choice) They were advised to abandon by USCG because of worsening weather condition and little hope of other help. 3 crew air lifted today to Elizabeth city. (so they tried for 3 days to make a go of it)

Lastly Aurora had a false alarm on their EPIRB, Capt. admitted mistake while checking gear. No assistance needed however a plane was sent to their location before the mistake was found.

So 2 boats had air rescues only 1 with sick crew and they were breaking up. Second air lift at the assistance of CG as there was little hope for anything else.

2 boats towed back due to no steering.

The fleet left knowing a cold front was to pass but it was supposed to pass fast and then good conditions, Instead it stalled and the fleet was stuck in the stream with 20-25. The problems came in the squalls with 30-40 against the stream.

I do not think the skippers did that bad if anything maybe they were not fully prepared to do jury rigs and make emergency repairs.

At least now this thread can have some real facts to work with. For those that belittle those out there claiming they were just seasick you can see now there was more to it. Until you have been there maybe we should not be so quick to judge.
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  #124  
Old 11-10-2013
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
You know me, Chall. I don't mind the disagreement at all.

Who sets the standard? ISAF is a great start. It's really pretty simple. And just like a race, it IS still up to the skipper, but the organizers - just like in a race - do some level of verification that the boats/skippers/crews are in compliance (spot checks, whatever...).

IF this "racing-level" standard of safety was an approach that rally organizers adopted - rallies would be invaluable in that they would become a great way to up the game of all participating cruisers.

As it is, it's essentially a sponsored crapshoot.

Again, my argument is putting absolutely nothing on you as an individual. My argument is putting the onus on the organizers of sponsored rallies. Period.
Starting with ISAF for safety is great. That is where I started when I set our boat up safety wise, but not where I finished

Your argument is putting something on me as an individual if I wish to participate in a rally - Incidentally most rallies are doing what you suggest in one form or another, all I am sure will follow soon.
ARC entry fees currently are based on length but you will drop about a cool 2-3K in fees. That guy who will come on your boat with his ISAF clipboard and declare you BFS safe isn't free you know ( nor will he be there with you in the liferaft).
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Last edited by chall03; 11-10-2013 at 08:08 PM. Reason: typo
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  #125  
Old 11-10-2013
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Quote:
Originally Posted by chall03 View Post
Starting with ISAF for safety is great. That is where I started when I set our boat up safety wise, but not where I finished

Your argument is putting something on me as an individual if I wish to participate in a rally - Incidentally most rallies are doing what you suggest in one form or another, all I am sure will follow soon.
ARC entry fees currently are based on length but you will drop about a cool 2-3K in fees. That guy who will come on your boat with his ISAF clipboard and declare you BFS safe isn't free you know ( nor will he be there with you in the liferaft).
Yes, it's putting something on you...IF you wish to participate in a rally, just like if you wish to participate in a race. If not - you've got no worries.

I have no problem with any of what you lay out above. Nothing's free. And at least you have a liferaft to be in.

I hope the rallies are moving in this direction. It would be a very good thing.
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  #126  
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Quote:
Originally Posted by sailvayu View Post
I have read through this whole thread and in all the finger pointing and blaming weak/scared crews boats not ready for the voyage and all, not one person has gotten the facts right. I love how people are so quick the judge others when they do not have a clue as to the facts. I have listened to these boats everyday on the SSB. I have heard the distress calls as they came in. I have a good friend on one of the boats towed in. So I will summarize.

First boat down a Cartalina 54? catamaran, lost mast, made it back in under their own power. Distress call but refused help just wanted CG aware.

Second boat down Braveheart. Injury broken arm. Distress call but made it in under their own after they found it unsafe for injured crew transfer.

Third boat down Alden 54 ketch, lost rudder, was towed to Chesapeake after drifting for 2 days.

Fourth boat down, Morgen 41 Outisland, Taking on water (beyond what pumps could keep up with), Bulkheads coming apart, severely sick crew. Crew of 4 air lifted to Elizabeth City

Fifth boat down, Hans Christen 38, lost mast, vessel still underway under their own power to Norfolk, No assistance given. Reported in this evening all is well aboard.

Sixth boat down, Catalina 42, lost rudder, waited 3 days for tow should be back in this evening. (I personally spoke with this skipper while at sea and he simply was not equipped for makeshift repairs.)

Seventh boat down Catalina 38, lost steering and engine. tried to make Bermuda but had to give up with no help from private tow (their first choice) They were advised to abandon by USCG because of worsening weather condition and little hope of other help. 3 crew air lifted today to Elizabeth city. (so they tried for 3 days to make a go of it)

Lastly Aurora had a false alarm on their EPIRB, Capt. admitted mistake while checking gear. No assistance needed however a plane was sent to their location before the mistake was found.

So 2 boats had air rescues only 1 with sick crew and they were breaking up. Second air lift at the assistance of CG as there was little hope for anything else.

2 boats towed back due to no steering.

The fleet left knowing a cold front was to pass but it was supposed to pass fast and then good conditions, Instead it stalled and the fleet was stuck in the stream with 20-25. The problems came in the squalls with 30-40 against the stream.

I do not think the skippers did that bad if anything maybe they were not fully prepared to do jury rigs and make emergency repairs.

At least now this thread can have some real facts to work with. For those that belittle those out there claiming they were just seasick you can see now there was more to it. Until you have been there maybe we should not be so quick to judge.
Thank you for the info. It's good to have a source besides the non-nautical media. Your friend OK?
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  #127  
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Yes he is fine thanks, a bit bruised and dehydrated but safe. Oh and forgot to mention there was boat that turned back in the first 24 hours due a sick crew. Felt it best not to take chances. Also should mention a big thanks to the Navy and CG personal for all their efforts to help those in need. Not just in this rally but everyday.
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  #128  
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Quote:
Originally Posted by sailvayu View Post
...

First boat down a Cartalina 54? catamaran, lost mast, made it back in under their own power. Distress call but refused help just wanted CG aware.
The boat should have issued a Pan Pan, that's what should be used to make the CG aware of the situation, instead they issued a not needed Mayday.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sailvayu View Post
Second boat down Braveheart. Injury broken arm. Distress call but made it in under their own after they found it unsafe for injured crew transfer.
The boat should have asked a medical evacuation not have deployed a Mayday.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sailvayu View Post
Lastly Aurora had a false alarm on their EPIRB, Capt. admitted mistake while checking gear. No assistance needed however a plane was sent to their location before the mistake was found.
Do you have seen an activated Epirb? How can someone not notice that an Epirb is activated?

and he waited airplanes to be searching for him to say that he had activated the Epirb?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sailvayu View Post
I do not think the skippers did that bad if anything maybe they were not fully prepared to do jury rigs and make emergency repairs.
Funny thing to say I give up, it seems that you all know a lot more than me.

Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 11-10-2013 at 09:21 PM.
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Quote:
Originally Posted by sailvayu View Post
Yes he is fine thanks, a bit bruised and dehydrated but safe. Oh and forgot to mention there was boat that turned back in the first 24 hours due a sick crew. Felt it best not to take chances. Also should mention a big thanks to the Navy and CG personal for all their efforts to help those in need. Not just in this rally but everyday.
A heartfelt THANK YOU! to all our service folk, past and present.

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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
The boat should have issued a Pan Pan, that's what should be used to make the CG aware of the situation, instead they issued a not needed Mayday.



The boat should have asked a medical evacuation not have deployed a Mayday.



Do you have seen an activated Epirb? How can someone not notice that an Epirb is activated?

and he waited airplanes to be searching for him to say that he had activated the Epirb?



Funny thing to say I give up, it seems that you all know a lot more than me.

Regards

Paulo
Paulo - I think you're being absolutely reasonable here. One of the problems appears to possibly be mixed signals sent by the sailors - causing the CG to run all over the place sorting these out.

If the listed facts are right - it seems there were radio-voiced Maydays, EPIRBs, DSC calls, and even Spot SOSs. ALL of these were viewed as Maydays...not Pan-Pans...until confirmed otherwise.

So the biggest question in my mind right now is what the conversations were between the CG and those distressed boats/crews. It seems an awful lot of SAR hardware and personnel were moved into place in multiple locations for these calls (the greatest thing about the CG - they just do). It would be great to know what the sequence of those communications was...in other words, at what point did those sailors go from Mayday to Okay?

The difference between Pan-Pan and Mayday is critical. So you have a valid point.
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