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  #141  
Old 11-11-2013
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Quote:
Originally Posted by chall03 View Post
Higher standard of safety???? I call BS on that. Again your equalling safety with regulation.

I just do not accept that to be the case. Nor do I accept that it has made racing inherently safer. Nor do I see rallies like this as being the same as an organised yacht race.

The rally in question is essentially free, based on likeminded cruising boats grouping together largely socially as best as I can make out. Not your cup of tea? Thats fine. But let's not make them suffer ISAF regs.

The onus of safety though is and should remain solely on the skipper.
Okay. I can't disabuse you of what you see as BS. But the ISAF regulations came about for a reason.

As for "suffering" such safety regulation - you're right. This appears to be a primary reason the SDR was started (from the above article)...

Quote:
The Salty Dawg Rally started three years ago after a core group of mariners from the Caribbean 1500 broke away. Linda Knowles and her husband founded the rally for seasoned mariners who desired a less rigid experience.
The SDR had 116 boats. The C1500 had 30. So the SDR's "seasoned mariners" (i.e. - "those who have completed at least one blue water passage") definitely seem to like less rigidity. It's just that the approach and outcome of both rallies is raising some valid questions.
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  #142  
Old 11-11-2013
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
"

From the article...

The Caribbean 1500, which charges a participation fee and adheres to International Sailing Federation safety standards, has long required each boat to submit to pre-event safety checks and strongly suggests that its participants set sail within a certain window.


As I say - it's pretty simple.
That's great. I know my boat is safe in the Caribeen 1500 'cause Bob the safety audit guy, who I don't know a thing about has given me a 'BFS approved' sticker. Bob who seems like a safe kind of guy cause he has a ISAF shirt and wears his socks up to his knees has ticked everything off on his sheet.

He doesn't know anything about my boat, why I have the amount of bilge pumps I have, whether I am dumb enough to get into my “ISO Standard 9650” Type 1 Group A with service Pack 1 liferaft that I had to buy, or whether I'm just a moron who doesn't like big waves and who should play golf.

I'm glad I'm paying big $$$$$ for bob to tell me I'm safe otherwise I would have to figure that out myself, like the guys in the free rally over there...

Bob tells me that ISAF recently amended it's lifejacket regs again, so I have to go and read their 400 page document to ensure I'm compliant, and drop another grand on more lifejackets. I was going to use that time and money to become a better sailor, but Bob's right I only need to understand the provisions of Amendment 4a section 3-11.

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  #143  
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Quote:
Originally Posted by chall03 View Post
That's great. I know my boat is safe in the Caribeen 1500 'cause Bob the safety audit guy, who I don't know a thing about has given me a 'BFS approved' sticker. Bob who seems like a safe kind of guy cause he has a ISAF shirt and wears his socks up to his knees has ticked everything off on his sheet.

He doesn't know anything about my boat, why I have the amount of bilge pumps I have, whether I am dumb enough to get into my “ISO Standard 9650” Type 1 Group A with service Pack 1 liferaft that I had to buy, or whether I'm just a moron who doesn't like big waves and who should play golf.

I'm glad I'm paying big $$$$$ for bob to tell me I'm safe otherwise I would have to figure that out myself, like the guys in the free rally over there...

Bob tells me that ISAF recently amended it's lifejacket regs again, so I have to go and read their 400 page document to ensure I'm compliant, and drop another grand on more lifejackets. I was going to use that time and money to become a better sailor, but Bob's right I only need to understand the provisions of Amendment 4a section 3-11.

Everyone hates ISAF Bob. But he's hilarious when he's hammered. Have you seen his Big Freakin' Sock dance?

BTW - here's a GREAT write-up about the Safety at Sea seminar by our very own SVShearwater:

http://www.svshearwater.com/?p=1283
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Last edited by smackdaddy; 11-11-2013 at 12:15 AM.
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  #144  
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
As for "suffering" such safety regulation - you're right. This appears to be a primary reason the SDR was started (from the above article)...



The SDR had 116 boats. The C1500 had 30. So the SDR's "seasoned mariners" (i.e. - "those who have completed at least one blue water passage") definitely seem to like less rigidity. It's just that the approach and outcome of both rallies is raising some valid questions.
Yes there are vaild questions, and perhaps in the fullness of time, what you suggest might be found true....to a degree or not.... it might just be coincidence and bad luck.

When I started offshore cruising I agreed with you wholeheartedly.
Like I said I certify my boat (as part of a yacht club I have to in order to participate in club events, yes cruising events as well ) I have I guess over time become more cynical in my approach.

Too much time is spent meeting the letter of law rather than the intent of the law.

BTW I have done 'Safety at sea' twice now, to look at a boat on the ocean now you need to do the course here.
I need to go and do a revalidation course next year to continue to be 'safe'.

I love letting off flares, who doesn't it's a hoot, but does it need to cost me $400.
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Last edited by chall03; 11-11-2013 at 12:41 AM. Reason: added BTW
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  #145  
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
Of course not. But there are three undeniable factors in a rally such as this that increase risk:

1. A schedule.
The Salty Dawg's had a "schedule"? Really? The 1500 has far more of a schedule, "strongly advising that participants set sail within a certain window", not to mention the parties and awards ceremonies planned upon the fleet's arrival in Tortola...

Quote:

Friday, November 8, 2013
The Salty Dawg Rally got under way this week from Hampton, Va., Beaufort, NC and other ports with boats in the 116 strong fleet departing as each skipper saw fit beginning on November 2 and on through today. November 4 had been set as the fleet departure date but the basic philosophy of the SDR is to have each skipper determine the schedule and course of their own vessels and to take responsibility accordingly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
2. A relatively low bar of experience/preparedness required.
Huh? How does their "low bar" compare with the experience "required" by what authority for anyone choosing to sail offshore on their own? Or, compared to the 1500, for example?

Quote:
The Salty Dawg Rally is a grassroots, non-profit organization, comprised of blue water sailors who have completed at least one blue water passage.
Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
3. The perception of "safety in numbers".
Can you cite where the organizers of the Salty Dawg Rally have ever cited an argument touting 'safety in numbers'? Who is fostering such a perception, precisely?
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  #146  
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Can you cite where the organizers of the Salty Dawg Rally have ever cited an argument touting 'safety in numbers'? Who is fostering such a perception, precisely?[/QUOTE]

Some Nancy's want to believe this is the case in rally's....Group think gone wrong again. The sea wins again.
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  #147  
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

I don't understand the dismissive nature of some of the posts on this thread. It appears people aren't allowed to comment or discuss unless they meet certain metrics gained by experience. Who decides what these metrics are? Why can't a day sailor who only sails on Flat Calm Lake come up with an original point or idea relevant to the topic at hand.

Then there is the 'you weren't there' types. It appears unless you were in those conditions, at that time, in that location in that type of boat you shouldn't discuss or comment on it. I don't think anybody can have total comprehension of any situation regardless of being there or not. People make decisions through their interpretation of the situation. People's interpretations differ so I don't understand why it can't be discussed.

Then there is the 'all the facts' camp. Until all the facts are known then comments or discussion should not occur. Putting the philosophical argument of what a fact is aside I don't think all the the facts will or can be known. So when can a proper discussion occur? Maybe after a report by the CG or possibly a book by one of the survivors? Will facts still not be open to intrepretation?

Lastly is the perjorative and vacuous 'armchair sailor' label. Aren't we all comfortably ensconed in some nook while posting on this forum.

So to sum up unless we are in the given situation as it is occuring, having prior experience of the same situation while having complete knowledge of the situation we are just 'armchair sailors' who should keep our mouthes shut.

However, if we had this knowledge would we be in that situation in the first place?
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  #148  
Old 11-11-2013
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

This post reminds me of my medical training; after the juniors had been up all night up to their asses in alligators, blood and guts a 9-5 academic lab doctor would explain to us exactly what we had done wrong while he was asleep! All invitations to join us at night were ignored.

It is very hard to criticize the guy who was at the sharp end while you were at home in bed.

We sail 4,000 miles per year and would never join a rally but our boat exceeds ISAF standards and we have never had a racer on board who's seamanship was better than my wife's.

Obviously call the USCG if you need them but it needs to be about personal responsibility and effort and not relying on the USCG to make up for your short comings.

And to Smack...how can a guy that looks like that write so well...obviously he has a ghost writer! The camera never lies!

Check our post for trans-Pacific, crew one or two needed Panama to New Zealand, or parts there of, starting February 2014.

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  #149  
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottUK View Post
I don't understand the dismissive nature of some of the posts on this thread. It appears people aren't allowed to comment or discuss unless they meet certain metrics gained by experience. Who decides what these metrics are? Why can't a day sailor who only sails on Flat Calm Lake come up with an original point or idea relevant to the topic at hand.

Then there is the 'you weren't there' types. It appears unless you were in those conditions, at that time, in that location in that type of boat you shouldn't discuss or comment on it. I don't think anybody can have total comprehension of any situation regardless of being there or not. People make decisions through their interpretation of the situation. People's interpretations differ so I don't understand why it can't be discussed.

Then there is the 'all the facts' camp. Until all the facts are known then comments or discussion should not occur. Putting the philosophical argument of what a fact is aside I don't think all the the facts will or can be known. So when can a proper discussion occur? Maybe after a report by the CG or possibly a book by one of the survivors? Will facts still not be open to intrepretation?

Lastly is the perjorative and vacuous 'armchair sailor' label. Aren't we all comfortably ensconed in some nook while posting on this forum.

So to sum up unless we are in the given situation as it is occuring, having prior experience of the same situation while having complete knowledge of the situation we are just 'armchair sailors' who should keep our mouthes shut.

However, if we had this knowledge would we be in that situation in the first place?
Everyone has a right to an opinion sure. Robust debate and disagreement on here is a great thing, it gives us the chance to think about these issues and have our opinions challenged. Ultimately though I will listen and give more weight to those that do have the experience over the day sailor in threads like this.

I do also personally find it uncomfortable and awkward to be overly critical of sailors in situations like these without the facts or without showing some compassion for the experience they have gone through. I guess I figure he who has never made a mistake aboard a sailboat should throw the first stone and that won't be me.

I have come too close to be the subject of one of these threads at least a few times

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yorksailor View Post
Obviously call the USCG of you need them but it needs to be about personal responsibility and effort and not relying on the USCG to make up for your short comings.

We sail 4,000 miles per year and would never join a rally but our boat exceeds ISAF standards and we have never had a racer on board who's seamanship was better than my wife's.

And to Smack...how can a guy that looks like that write so well...obviously he has a ghost writer! The camera never lies!

Check our post for trans-Pacific, crew one or two needed Panama to New Zealand, or parts there of, starting February 2014.
+1.

I actually wish I could come crew for you, but alas time does not allow me too. By the sound of it though it would be the opportunity of a lifetime for someone, on a well found and well sailed boat.
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  #150  
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Quote:
Robust debate and disagreement on here is a great thing, it gives us the chance to think about these issues and have our opinions challenged.
I concur. I just prefer debate and discussion without it getting personal unless solicited. I like when these types of situations are discussed where details are still emerging. I try to look at the posts in the context in which they are described and compare them to posts when further details become available.

Quote:
Ultimately though I will listen and give more weight to those that do have the experience over the day sailor in threads like this.
I guess that is a point you and I differ as I will first give consideration to the merits of the argument.
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