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  #151  
Old 11-11-2013
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottUK View Post
I guess that is a point you and I differ as I will first give consideration to the merits of the argument.
IMHO The merit of the argument is specifically related to the perspective of the person making it.

This is not philosophy. All that does matter (for me anyway) is becoming a better sailor. A well made argument is great, a discussion won is lovely, but it could still be wrong.
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  #152  
Old 11-11-2013
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

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Originally Posted by chall03 View Post
Smack I can't speak to the US CG specifically. You are obviously more informed than I on the detail there. In my part of the world though, interestingly the rescue response that is triggered for a Mayday and a Pan Pan is almost identical. ( I am NOT suggesting anyone incorrectly call a Mayday for a situation that is a PAN PAN).

.....
That is really odd. A pan pan is a communications to alert authorities and SAR that something is not working on your boat and that you have a serious problem. But that you or the boat are not at risk. SAR follows closely the situation that can turn in a Mayday or can be sorted out (like it was in this case) and the urgency situation is finished.

On a Mayday SAR deploys immediately all the safety measures that they can provide: They send airplanes to find the boat, helicopters for the rescue and they divert ships for the rescue.

It seems the same to you?

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
...
My point is that radio contact would have been established between the CG and the boat(s) if possible. From there a discussion would have occurred as to the nature of the emergency. I just wonder at what point in that discussion the Mayday became a Pan-Pan? No way to know of course - but it would be an interesting transcript.
Smack, a Mayday does not become a Pan Pan. A Pan Pan can become a Mayday.

Regarding communications on one of the cases were a mayday was issued we know that only when the airplanes were circling the boat on crew member said to them that they were not needed and that they could sail safely to port.

One of the advantages of a rally is communications. On many boats there are some with satellite phones or long range radio and the ones that doesn't have them are able to relay messages through VHF radio. It seems that they did not use these means to the best use.

Regards

Paulo
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  #153  
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

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Originally Posted by PCP View Post
That is really odd. A pan pan is a communications to alert authorities and SAR that something is not working on your boat and that you have a serious problem. But that you or the boat are not at risk. SAR follows closely the situation that can turn in a Mayday or can be sorted out (like it was in this case) and the urgency situation is finished.

On a Mayday SAR deploys immediately all the safety measures that they can provide: They send airplanes to find the boat, helicopters for the rescue and they divert ships for the rescue.

It seems the same to you?
I didn't say it seems the same to me. I am aware of the difference between the two. What I was explaining to you is that the actual response here in Australia by SAR in both cases will be to begin the process of a rescue, and to ask craft to divert and render assistance. The assumption being that any PAN PAN could be a MAYDAY until proved otherwise.
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  #154  
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

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Originally Posted by PCP View Post
If you are from the UK you know for certain the outcome of that incident where a racing boat was rammed by a cargo ship on a race? The sailor was condemned to pay a HUGE fine.
Is that <a href="http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2315072/Former-Royal-Navy-officer-denies-flouting-maritime-law-crashing-yacht-bright-red-120-000-tonne-oil-tanker.html">this</a> incident?

Can hardly have been his fault, that tanker was hard to see and easy to miss.
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  #155  
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Quote:
This is not philosophy.
Logical argumentation is the very basis of philosophy if it isn't I want some of my uni tuition back.

Quote:
A well made argument is great, a discussion won is lovely, but it could still be wrong.
A 'well made argument' would be true otherwise it would not be 'well made' so could not be wrong. In philosophical terms this is called 'the fallacy of denying the antecedent.'

Experience has no bearing as to whether an argument is true or untrue only the logic of the argument the premise is built on.
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  #156  
Old 11-11-2013
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

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Originally Posted by Melrna View Post
Bottom line, is if any boats were in the Gulf Stream in that kind of weather, boats will break without good seamanship, crews will get sick and injuries will happen. I just hope those that are Monday Night Armchair Sailing have been out in these kinds of seas and winds... Let have a discussion based on facts not Armchair Sailing.
These unappreciative Monday Night Armchair Sailors make me sick!

Here on Sailnet, they simply don't appreciate the amazing opportunity to worship at the feet of these Ocean Giants, amazing geniuses who are capable of fantastic feats of superhuman gallantry by actually SAILING IN THE OCEAN AWAY FROM LAND!!!

Anyone who can SAIL IN THE OCEAN AWAY FROM LAND deserves our everlasting respect and admiration! It is such an amazing act - I can't believe any human can actually do it!

By the way, this was no mere gale that surprised a bunch of unprepared geriatric picnic sailors on boat-show boats that were too big for them to handle, IT WAS A FULL BLOWN HURRICANE, capable of smashing boats instantly in the Gulfstream, rendering genuine real sailors into quivering, blood-puking, EPIRB-activating survivalists, you damn Monday Night Armchair Sailors!

Now, take some expensive, Blue-Water Sailing courses, buy a boat-show 40-footer, and have some respect for your superiors!
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Last edited by jameswilson29; 11-11-2013 at 07:50 AM.
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  #157  
Old 11-11-2013
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

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Originally Posted by sailvayu View Post
I have read through this whole thread and in all the finger pointing and blaming weak/scared crews boats not ready for the voyage and all, not one person has gotten the facts right. I love how people are so quick the judge others when they do not have a clue as to the facts. I have listened to these boats everyday on the SSB. I have heard the distress calls as they came in. I have a good friend on one of the boats towed in. So I will summarize.

First boat down a Cartalina 54? catamaran, lost mast, made it back in under their own power. Distress call but refused help just wanted CG aware.

Second boat down Braveheart. Injury broken arm. Distress call but made it in under their own after they found it unsafe for injured crew transfer.

Third boat down Alden 54 ketch, lost rudder, was towed to Chesapeake after drifting for 2 days.

Fourth boat down, Morgen 41 Outisland, Taking on water (beyond what pumps could keep up with), Bulkheads coming apart, severely sick crew. Crew of 4 air lifted to Elizabeth City

Fifth boat down, Hans Christen 38, lost mast, vessel still underway under their own power to Norfolk, No assistance given. Reported in this evening all is well aboard.

Sixth boat down, Catalina 42, lost rudder, waited 3 days for tow should be back in this evening. (I personally spoke with this skipper while at sea and he simply was not equipped for makeshift repairs.)

Seventh boat down Catalina 38, lost steering and engine. tried to make Bermuda but had to give up with no help from private tow (their first choice) They were advised to abandon by USCG because of worsening weather condition and little hope of other help. 3 crew air lifted today to Elizabeth city. (so they tried for 3 days to make a go of it)

Lastly Aurora had a false alarm on their EPIRB, Capt. admitted mistake while checking gear. No assistance needed however a plane was sent to their location before the mistake was found.

So 2 boats had air rescues only 1 with sick crew and they were breaking up. Second air lift at the assistance of CG as there was little hope for anything else.

2 boats towed back due to no steering.

The fleet left knowing a cold front was to pass but it was supposed to pass fast and then good conditions, Instead it stalled and the fleet was stuck in the stream with 20-25. The problems came in the squalls with 30-40 against the stream.

I do not think the skippers did that bad if anything maybe they were not fully prepared to do jury rigs and make emergency repairs.

At least now this thread can have some real facts to work with. For those that belittle those out there claiming they were just seasick you can see now there was more to it. Until you have been there maybe we should not be so quick to judge.
Nice analysis. The basic mistake highlighted above. The words, "supposed to," are not those I would bet my life on, knowing how difficult weather is to predict. Knowing a November cold front was imminent was the ONLY thing they needed to know. "...t'was the witch of November come stealin'...Lightfoot.
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  #158  
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Quote:
These unappreciative Monday Night Armchair Sailors make me sick!

Here on Sailnet, they simply don't appreciate the amazing opportunity to worship at the feet of these Ocean Giants, amazing geniuses who are capable of fantastic feats of superhuman gallantry by actually SAILING IN THE OCEAN AWAY FROM LAND!!!

Anyone who can SAIL IN THE OCEAN AWAY FROM LAND deserves our everlasting respect and admiration!

By the way, this was no mere gale that surprised a bunch of unprepared geriatric picnic sailors on boats that were too big for them to handle, IT WAS A FULL BLOWN HURRICANE, capable of smashing boats instantly in the Gulfstream, rendering genuine real sailors into quivering, blood-puking, EPIRB-activating survivalists, you damn Monday Night Armchair Sailors!

Now, take some Blue Water Sailing courses and have some respect for your superiors!
Some here don't appear to appreciate your cheekiness James but I, for one, do.
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  #159  
Old 11-11-2013
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Once again it would seem some are inserting their opinions as facts here. Paulo took what I said and assumed all the boats that called in sent maydays. I never said anyone sent a mayday. The facts as far as I know only 2 of the boats sent maydays and 2 sent a spot sos. In some cases the boats never called the CG and only called in to the SSb net coordinator who in turn made a phone call to the CG informing them of the situation, no mayday or Pan pan. For at least one that lost their mast they set off the EPIRB a natural thing to do when your rig is in the water pounding against your hull. Once they cleared things and got everything under control they canceled the emergency as they felt they could get by on their own.

My point is lets not start a argument and condemn people based on speculation. If you do not know the facts take the time to learn them. This can be a good discussion that could help others thinking of making this passage in the future but it would help to keep the facts separate from opinion.
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Another point completely over looked is that the reason all these boats leave when they do is because insurance companies will not let the boats further south than 30 before November 1. I think this is the main reason so many get in trouble with these late season frontal systems. They have to wait till after the first to leave and this is just the time of year you get all those cold fronts starting to come thru. Maybe we should bash the insurance companies instead of the skippers!
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