Rallies Gone Wrong - Page 17 - SailNet Community
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post #161 of 957 Old 11-11-2013
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

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The facts as far as I know
So you have qualified your statements of facts. Is this not then the speculation you are accusing and admonishing others of making?
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post #162 of 957 Old 11-11-2013
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Wayne is right about insurance and Nov 1 and I suspect the conditions locally were worse that reported generally.

It is a fallacy that there is a magical weather window on Nov 1st between the last tropical storm and the first Nor'easter of winter. This fallacy is made even worse by Rallies having a fixed start window of the first week in November.

We have done the outside Hatteras trip twice in the November, because of our insurance, but we just sat on the Chesapeake until the weather was suitable.

" Never leave a warm pub to go out in a Gale!" my old British Navy Dad used to tell me!

So lets all just be constructive and learn from the errors of others.

"Remember experience only means that you screw up less often!"
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post #163 of 957 Old 11-11-2013
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

When I say the facts as I know them it is based on my having listened to the radio conversations from the skippers on the boats in trouble to the net. No one other than those out there know the full facts. I feel the information I have presented is more accurate than what I have read by those who have only read a news report. I will let the reader here decide which information to use for discussion.

Capt. Wayne Canning, AMS

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post #164 of 957 Old 11-11-2013
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

I've read most of this thread, and have formed some strong opinions.

After careful consideration, I've decided not to share most of them because:

1. I am still unsure of all the facts, despite what has been presented here from media and "live witnesses" so I won't opine on these participants' decision-making.

2. Although I have raced and cruised in some strong conditions, I have not yet left the Chesapeake Bay, and I don't want to offer misinformation on ocean sailing.

I guess I can safely offer one very general opinion on "regulation":

Recent trends in U.S. society indicate that when groups of people frequently engage in activities that result in injury, death, and a perceived drain on public resources, these activites end up being heavily regulated or curtailed. Often, these negative events are extremely amplified by national and local media. (I won't opine on the reasons why, here.)

MANY activities share this common thread with sailing:
Hiking
Rock climbing
Motorcycles
Sky-diving
Hot air ballooning
Recreational boating

It all boils down to "If you poop in your own bed, your parents will be along shortly to control you, to prevent future occurances".

Therefore, "self-regulation" is the safest, least intrusive option. Self-regulation, is simply taking responsibility for one's self.
So how do we do that?

Rallies could require participants to demonstrate a minimum level of seamanship. This could be demonstrated by producing proof of attending SAS seminars, or other educational processes. Failure to provide proof= non-participation.

Rallies could require (and offer) free, in-depth vessel inspections and specify minimum equipment requirements. Failure to pass= non-participation.

Rallies could offer refresher training seminars prior to departure (not to be counted as a replacement for SAS training, but as a supplement or refresher)

This doesn't infrigne upon anyone's freedom, because participation in rallies is not legally required, but rather it encourages good seamanship and leverages that feeling that sailing in a rally promotes safety.

In short: If rallies provide a false sense of safety, then let's turn this into a genuine source of safety and good seamanship.

I do NOT NOT NOT agree that rally organizers should be held in any degree responsible for what happens on a vessel at sea. This sets a dangerous, legal precedent. Eventually a line must be drawn in the sand, where the skipper is responsible.

We don't sue meteorologists when their forecasts are wrong, and a family minivan spins out in the snow because they opted to ignore real-world conditions and set out for a drive to the movie theater.

All the rally can do, is promote preparedness, good seamanship, and offer the best meteorlogical information and routing possible. The skipper is the actual "man on the scene" and must make decisions that sometimes contradict what a weather-router 900 miles away, is telling him.

In the spirit of self-regulation, responsibility, and keeping our sport free from government interference, we should each of us, strive to continually learn and improve our seamanship. We should encourage good seamanship within our community, especially among new sailors, be they old or young.

Offering a wide variety of affordable, comprehensive education and hands-on training, and selling good seamanship as "cool skills to have" instead of some kind of elitist thing, will encourage people to do the right thing.

I apologize for the length of my post.

S/V Old Shoes
1973 Pearson 30 #255
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post #165 of 957 Old 11-11-2013
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

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No one other than those out there know the full facts. I feel the information I have presented is more accurate than what I have read by those who have only read a news report.
As I said previously I don't believe anybody will know fully what has transpired. I think it is impossible.

It could be true what you have presented could more accurate then the news reports but I would think it likely at least some of the reports included information through direct contact with the CG so have information you likely would not have.

I don't mind the digression of the discourse in this thread. Regardless of the veracity of the information the discussion in this thread can be useful. I don't think anybody in their right mind would determine a final conclusion about this based on the information garnered here.
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

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Originally Posted by Yorksailor View Post
Wayne is right about insurance and Nov 1 and I suspect the conditions locally were worse that reported generally.

It is a fallacy that there is a magical weather window on Nov 1st between the last tropical storm and the first Nor'easter of winter. This fallacy is made even worse by Rallies having a fixed start window of the first week in November.

We have done the outside Hatteras trip twice in the November, because of our insurance, but we just sat on the Chesapeake until the weather was suitable.

" Never leave a warm pub to go out in a Gale!" my old British Navy Dad used to tell me!

So lets all just be constructive and learn from the errors of others.

"Remember experience only means that you screw up less often!"
Or in my case that you have screwed up lots of time so have more expeience
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post #167 of 957 Old 11-11-2013
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

I hate to opine as I see as bad karma on such things as you never know, it can and will happen to us in the future but

there was a pic posted last page or 2 back of what seems to be an island packet 30 something or 40 something with no damage whatsoever other than a wrapped furler(which happens a lot if one is not careful) and part of the reason I ony use hank on sails.

can somebody explain to me if this boat issued a mayday or not? or was it just a pic from a passing plane?
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post #168 of 957 Old 11-11-2013
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

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Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
The Salty Dawg's had a "schedule"? Really? The 1500 has far more of a schedule, "strongly advising that participants set sail within a certain window", not to mention the parties and awards ceremonies planned upon the fleet's arrival in Tortola...
Is this not a schedule?
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The Fall 2013 Salty Dawg Rally will depart on November 4 (weather permitting) from Bluewater Yachting Center, Hampton, VA (or other locations of your choice), to sail to the British Virgin Islands, the Bahamas, or other various locations.
Whether the 1500 has "far more of a schedule" than the SDR doesn't matter in this discussion. As I said, there is a schedule.

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Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
Huh? How does their "low bar" compare with the experience "required" by what authority for anyone choosing to sail offshore on their own? Or, compared to the 1500, for example?
Jon, focus, we're not talking about those who want to sail offshore on their own. We're talking about rallies.

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Can you cite where the organizers of the Salty Dawg Rally have ever cited an argument touting 'safety in numbers'? Who is fostering such a perception, precisely?
"They" are Jon. It's "them". Sigh.

It's not exactly exotic psychology here. And not much needs to be touted in this area. The perception already exists and it's a strong perception. Then when elements like this...

Quote:
Free weather routing from Chris Parker provided by Blue Water Sailing Magazine.
...a singular point of outside expert influence (i.e. - usually expensive) is added to this group equation, individual decision-making can easily be affected.

Again, I'm not addressing the above points to any particular rally. I'm arguing that all rallies should hold to a higher level of safety standards such as ISAF - precisely because they introduce elements of risk that are unique and typically not similarly present in individual cruising. I actually didn't know before the above article that the C1500 did just that. I think that's great. But, judging by SDR founders' quote above, that approach was obviously too rigorous for them and another 116 sailors.

Now that there's been a problem, there are questions that should be explored.


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Last edited by smackdaddy; 11-11-2013 at 10:12 AM.
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post #169 of 957 Old 11-11-2013
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

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Originally Posted by Yorksailor View Post
And to Smack...how can a guy that looks like that write so well...obviously he has a ghost writer! The camera never lies!
I have a face for literature.

Thanks dude.


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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

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Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Smack, a Mayday does not become a Pan Pan. A Pan Pan can become a Mayday.
You're right. It was a poor choice of words. What I meant was that after communications are established between the CG and the vessel following the distress call, the skipper of the vessel can cancel the Mayday if he feels he's not in imminent danger. This would essentially be moving the dial back to a Pan-Pan state (the dismasted cat is an example). Depending on the timing of this communication, the CG may not need to deploy assets. Again, it's their call.

Where this all gets especially muddy in my opinion are with things like the DSC distress and the Spot SOS. These are a little less "final option" as perceived by the sailor than a voiced Mayday or an EPIRB. But without further communication as to the nature of the emergency - these can easily cause some confusion on whether it's a Mayday or a Pan-Pan call. And as you know, such calls will always be treated as a Mayday by the CG until proven otherwise. So it puts more onus on the skipper of the vessel to communicate as quickly as possible.

Though I haven't dug down on it, it would be interesting to know the technologies used in each of the 7(?) distress calls - and which of those were intended as Pan-Pans, not Maydays (i.e. - which of those declined assistance and carried on).


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