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  #171  
Old 11-11-2013
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Quote:
Is this not a schedule?

Quote:
The Fall 2013 Salty Dawg Rally will depart on November 4 (weather permitting) from Bluewater Yachting Center, Hampton, VA (or other locations of your choice), to sail to the British Virgin Islands, the Bahamas, or other various locations.
I don't see the difference here. The times I have gone off shore, with the exception of racing, a departure date was determined and we left when the weather permitted. Think that's fairly typical.
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  #172  
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Quote:
Originally Posted by BubbleheadMd View Post
I've read most of this thread, and have formed some strong opinions.

After careful consideration, I've decided not to share most of them because:

1. I am still unsure of all the facts, despite what has been presented here from media and "live witnesses" so I won't opine on these participants' decision-making.

2. Although I have raced and cruised in some strong conditions, I have not yet left the Chesapeake Bay, and I don't want to offer misinformation on ocean sailing.

I guess I can safely offer one very general opinion on "regulation":

Recent trends in U.S. society indicate that when groups of people frequently engage in activities that result in injury, death, and a perceived drain on public resources, these activites end up being heavily regulated or curtailed. Often, these negative events are extremely amplified by national and local media. (I won't opine on the reasons why, here.)

MANY activities share this common thread with sailing:
Hiking
Rock climbing
Motorcycles
Sky-diving
Hot air ballooning
Recreational boating

It all boils down to "If you poop in your own bed, your parents will be along shortly to control you, to prevent future occurances".

Therefore, "self-regulation" is the safest, least intrusive option. Self-regulation, is simply taking responsibility for one's self.
So how do we do that?

Rallies could require participants to demonstrate a minimum level of seamanship. This could be demonstrated by producing proof of attending SAS seminars, or other educational processes. Failure to provide proof= non-participation.

Rallies could require (and offer) free, in-depth vessel inspections and specify minimum equipment requirements. Failure to pass= non-participation.

Rallies could offer refresher training seminars prior to departure (not to be counted as a replacement for SAS training, but as a supplement or refresher)

This doesn't infrigne upon anyone's freedom, because participation in rallies is not legally required, but rather it encourages good seamanship and leverages that feeling that sailing in a rally promotes safety.

In short: If rallies provide a false sense of safety, then let's turn this into a genuine source of safety and good seamanship.

I do NOT NOT NOT agree that rally organizers should be held in any degree responsible for what happens on a vessel at sea. This sets a dangerous, legal precedent. Eventually a line must be drawn in the sand, where the skipper is responsible.

We don't sue meteorologists when their forecasts are wrong, and a family minivan spins out in the snow because they opted to ignore real-world conditions and set out for a drive to the movie theater.

All the rally can do, is promote preparedness, good seamanship, and offer the best meteorlogical information and routing possible. The skipper is the actual "man on the scene" and must make decisions that sometimes contradict what a weather-router 900 miles away, is telling him.

In the spirit of self-regulation, responsibility, and keeping our sport free from government interference, we should each of us, strive to continually learn and improve our seamanship. We should encourage good seamanship within our community, especially among new sailors, be they old or young.

Offering a wide variety of affordable, comprehensive education and hands-on training, and selling good seamanship as "cool skills to have" instead of some kind of elitist thing, will encourage people to do the right thing.

I apologize for the length of my post.
Nailed it.
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  #173  
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottUK View Post
I don't see the difference here. The times I have gone off shore, with the exception of racing, a departure date was determined and we left when the weather permitted. Think that's fairly typical.
You're right. There is always a schedule. But a schedule you set for yourself is very different than a schedule set by an organization you're looking to, backed by weather advice its providing, reinforced by another 115 boats you're supposed to sail with.
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  #174  
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

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Originally Posted by christian.hess View Post
I hate to opine as I see as bad karma on such things as you never know, it can and will happen to us in the future but

there was a pic posted last page or 2 back of what seems to be an island packet 30 something or 40 something with no damage whatsoever other than a wrapped furler(which happens a lot if one is not careful) and part of the reason I ony use hank on sails.

can somebody explain to me if this boat issued a mayday or not? or was it just a pic from a passing plane?
Yes.

The picture relates with what is immediately above on that post:


"ST PETERSBURG, FL -
The Coast Guard rescued three stranded sailors who were trapped 80 miles west of Tampa.

On Monday afternoon, the sailing boat ‘Grateful' was making its way from Louisiana to Cape Coral. The three-man crew was delivering it to its owner when things went horribly wrong.

"It was nerve wracking," said sailor Brian Burke. "By Monday morning, we had lost our engines, blown out a sail, and by that time we were adrift."

The crew sent out a distress signal.

"Within about an hour and 45 minutes we had a helicopter overhead, he was communicating with us," said sailor Craig Toomey.

Soon after, the Coast Guard Cutter 'Nantucket' was sent to the rescue.

"[The water] was pretty bad," Captain Ryan Waitt said. "The biggest issue was the seas were building, we saw about 6 to 8 feet."

"It was a little dicey, and a little uncomfortable and not something I wanna do again anytime soon," said Cleve Fair, another sailor on board....Currently, the ‘Grateful' is still disabled and stranded at sea....Despite this obvious mishap, these men still plan to finish the job they started, and deliver the boat to Cape Coral.




Coast Guard rescues 3 boaters 80 miles west of Tampa - WFLA News Channel 8"

However this happened at Nov 05, 2013 and not in this rally.

Regards

Paulo
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  #175  
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

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Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
a singular point of outside expert influence (i.e. - usually expensive) is added to this group equation, individual decision-making can easily be affected.
.
Actually, weather advise by Chris Parker is quite affordable, especially in the context of how much money one spends to prepare a boat for a passage to the Caribbean. And the amount of money spent once at the destination.
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  #176  
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

I guess I'm still misssing your point Smack. Cuisers often go in packs and hire the services of a weather guru.

From what I understand only 2 of the boats were from the SDR out of 116. That's less than 2 percent. Those are numbers the last single handed round the would event would die for. Though the comparision is not exact these are elite sailors.
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Yes.

The picture relates with what is immediately above on that post:


"ST PETERSBURG, FL -

"[The water] was pretty bad," Captain Ryan Waitt said. "The biggest issue was the seas were building, we saw about 6 to 8 feet."




Coast Guard rescues 3 boaters 80 miles west of Tampa - WFLA News Channel 8"

However this happened at Nov 05, 2013 and not in this rally.

Regards

Paulo
wow, just wow

a delivery skipper, saw 6 to 8 feet, had crew and couldnt change sails...and his ENGINE(S)? were down

this is sad
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  #178  
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Quote:
Originally Posted by sailvayu View Post
Once again it would seem some are inserting their opinions as facts here. Paulo took what I said and assumed all the boats that called in sent maydays......
You should at least read what others write before accusing them of having unsubstantiated opinions. It is not me that said that those boats sent maydays but the Coast guard. I also posted that two other boats asked for help trough satphone (according to the CG):

"Here’s a breakdown of each incident provided by the U.S. Coast Guard:

Rescue #1:

Crewmembers aboard the 41-foot sailboat, Ahimsa, sent out a distress signal via a satellite tracking device, stating that they were taking on water approximately 230 miles east of Virginia Beach and were in need of assistance.
....

Rescue #2:

In a second case, crewmembers aboard the 38-foot sailboat Nyapa, sent out a distress signal via a satellite tracking device stating that they had lost their mast and were taking on water approximately 275 miles east of Virginia Beach and were in need of assistance.

Rescue #3:

In a third case, 5th District watchstanders received an alert from an emergency position indicating radio beacon registered the sailboat Aurora....


U.S. Coast Guard Comes to Rescue of ?Salty Dogs? Off Virginia Coast | gCaptain ? Maritime & Offshore News

Regards

Paulo
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  #179  
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottUK View Post
I guess I'm still misssing your point Smack. Cuisers often go in packs and hire the services of a weather guru.

From what I understand only 2 of the boats were from the SDR out of 116. That's less than 2 percent. Those are numbers the last single handed round the would event would die for. Though the comparision is not exact these are elite sailors.
I don't know the exact numbers of SDR boats involved. The SDR site mentions 5...

Quote:
There were several incidents and emergencies among the fleet in the first 36 hours in which five boats had rudder and rig failures, seasickness and one broken arm.
Regardless of this number/ratio - I'm not in any way talking about what individual or loosely affiliated cruisers do. I'm talking about organized/sponsored rallies.
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  #180  
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Quote:
Originally Posted by jorgenl View Post
Actually, weather advise by Chris Parker is quite affordable, especially in the context of how much money one spends to prepare a boat for a passage to the Caribbean. And the amount of money spent once at the destination.
That's true. "Expensive" is a very relative term. $195/year, $95/month, $10/day is probably not a blip on many cruisers' ATM card. I'm just saying when it's offered for free by the rally organizer doesn't it likely become the de facto source for forecasting and routing decisions for the majority of the fleet - unlike in the case of individual cruisers?
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Last edited by smackdaddy; 11-11-2013 at 11:46 AM.
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