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  #251  
Old 11-13-2013
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Quote:
Originally Posted by blowinstink View Post
I'm pretty much with Jon and Dave on this one. I took a look at the SDR rally entrant list and I don't see any boats on there that look out of place based on age or builder alone. I think that says something -- lots of questionable boats make these runs but they are not doing so as part of the SDR.

I believe that the problems here have far more to do with the conditions in the N Atlantic in November than with anything the Rallys do or don't do. The nature of East Coast weather systems in the late fall / early winter is not something that gets a lot of attention (as Jon points out Don Street is the exception with his focus on the issue) but which really deserves it. The spacing of the cold fronts and the severity of local conditions are unknowns that can't be fully forecast (hell they're not even accurately reported afterward). In a certain respect, I think the rally format offers an opportunity to inform the participants of those risks and to give them an opportunity to prepare themselves and the boat.

Anyway, like everything else there is no black and white here. I am just glad that the only people who seem to spend much time talking about regulating offshore sailing are sailors themselves.
I'll make a couple of more clarifications on this - then I'll try to let it lie...

I'm not at all for "regulating offshore sailing". I'm for holding rally organizers to a higher standard so that participants can benefit from that across the board. You're right that the SDR fleet is made up of a lot of very capable boats (I went through them too) - but this was not by design according to the "rules" of that rally from what I've seen.

With a low entry threshold, the incentive to get as many boats as possible in the rally, and relatively low safety standards - ESPECIALLY IN THE CONDITIONS YOU'VE JUST POINTED OUT - things will likely not go well in the long term (I think we're already seeing this.)

Finally, on Chall's BFS angle...if I were to throw sponsor money at a rally, it would definitely be something like the Carib 1500, ARC, NARC, etc. That's because those rallies have a high standard of safety. I've always held that every up-and-coming sailor should want to "go big" - but that they should also be as prepared as possible to do so. Encouraging big without pushing preparedness is never a good idea in my opinion.

PS - Here's a story of an emergency/injury well-handled in the C1500:

http://www.worldcruising.com/Carib15...ID=226464&src=
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Last edited by smackdaddy; 11-13-2013 at 12:01 PM.
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  #252  
Old 11-13-2013
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Okay, so who wants to open a new discussion on the efficacy of safety equipment lists and SAS training? There are many issues to discuss before deciding whether rallies should require certain equipment, training and experience.
Life raft drills in calm waters?
Fire drills in open parking lots?
Backup steering devices rigged while being tossed about on a raging ocean?
HF radio antennas integrated into the standing rigging?
Hull puncture remedies?
Etc., etc....
John
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  #253  
Old 11-13-2013
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

It seems to me that some clarification is in order regarding the two or three main issues that are been in discussion regarding Rallies.

It seems that some does not see any safety advantage in rallies. That seems to be not a dominant opinion so I will skip that one.

There are those that think that the rallies should be safer if a kind of a free association of sailors around a departing date but with freedom of choice in what regards the departure date. Everybody can depart when he wants and the organization has not any role in what regards safety. All are responsible to themselves and the organization has no responsibility whatsoever in what regards security. One example of this kind of Rally is the one that concerns this thread.

There are those that think that a rally is safer if organized by very experienced and competent sailors that assume a role in what regards safety and security. They not only demand a minimum of safety equipment that they find essential as they will inspect each bot equipment to see if they are up to the standards they demand. They put their experience to the advantage of the less experienced sailors and are they that determine when there are safety conditions for all to make a safe passage and chose the departure day. A type of rally like this is the ARC.

There are some advantages on the first model but the second one, assuming that the sailors responsible for it are really experienced ones, has incomparably more advantages. Not only the advantages to have other boats nearby on a passage but to the less experienced sailors is offered all the experience of very experienced sailors in what regards safety equipment and in what regards the choice of a date to start a passage.

Regarding the one that we are talking about I showed some surprise that all or most the boats sailed away to one of the most difficult passages with a forecast of 25K winds. To my surprise JonEisberg said that with the weather forecast that had been released those conditions were predictable.

I asked him then, why those sailors went out on that date? He said I had to ask them.

Clearly it seems it was not a good choice and it seems that if someone with the experience of Jon was responsible to set a day for sailing away on that rally he would have not allowed that some relatively inexperienced sailors (among other experienced crews) went out on that particular timing.

How can someone not understand the advantages of having a truly experienced sailor setting the departure date for a rally, in what regards safety on a passage?
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  #254  
Old 11-13-2013
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
I'll make a couple of more clarifications on this - then I'll try to let it lie...

I'm not at all for "regulating offshore sailing". I'm for holding rally organizers to a higher standard so that participants can benefit from that across the board. You're right that the SDR fleet is made up of a lot of very capable boats (I went through them too) - but this was not by design according to the "rules" of that rally from what I've seen.

With a low entry threshold, the incentive to get as many boats as possible in the rally, and relatively low safety standards - ESPECIALLY IN THE CONDITIONS YOU'VE JUST POINTED OUT - things will likely not go well in the long term (I think we're already seeing this.)

Finally, on Chall's BFS angle...if I were to throw sponsor money at a rally, it would definitely be something like the Carib 1500, ARC, NARC, etc. That's because those rallies have a high standard of safety. I've always held that every up-and-coming sailor should want to "go big" - but that they should also be as prepared as possible to do so. Encouraging big without pushing preparedness is never a good idea in my opinion.

PS - Here's a story of an emergency/injury well-handled in the C1500:

http://www.worldcruising.com/Carib15...ID=226464&src=
Everyone wants a higher standard of safety. Thats a given.

In the examples above though I showed you how bluntly applying ISAF regs, would not necesarily lead to that inproved safety, but rather increased red tape, added expense and moves the focus away taking responsbility for one's own backside.

As an aside, please remember ISAF regs are racing regs. They were not conceived for doublehanded cruising boats. In several ways they do not take into account the differences between a full crew pushing a boat to it's limit, and Martin and Mary doublehanding their way to the Carribean.
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  #255  
Old 11-13-2013
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

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Originally Posted by ccriders View Post
Okay, so who wants to open a new discussion on the efficacy of safety equipment lists and SAS training? There are many issues to discuss before deciding whether rallies should require certain equipment, training and experience.
Life raft drills in calm waters?
Fire drills in open parking lots?
Backup steering devices rigged while being tossed about on a raging ocean?
HF radio antennas integrated into the standing rigging?
Hull puncture remedies?
Etc., etc....
John
I think it would be a great discussion to have.
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  #256  
Old 11-13-2013
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

So am I understanding this correctly? Smack will be conducting a damage control school on the Smacktanic so we can be certified to sail in a rally? If you are taking reservations, Iíd like to be in the first class 'cause that boat is going to get real beat up. Just saying.

The way I see it, Smack can either fork over the big bucks and do the Carib 1500, or plunk down little bucks and do the informal (and less stringent) SDR or he can pay no money and do it on his own. No point in making SDR the same thing as the C1500. Every skipper who slips the mooring lines is responsible for his crew, his boat and himself. Donít abrogate your responsibility as a skipper by assigning it to a rally sponsor. Read those release forms before you sign them.

Again, nothing has been offered in this discussion to suggest ISAF Cat1 or SAS certificates would have had any impact on the outcome for those five boats. Smack, you need to get more confident in your sailing skills so you make whatever passage you do as uneventful as possible and stop looking for others to make sure you are up to it.
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  #257  
Old 11-13-2013
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

We sure don't need more rules. Even if you are shut out of a rally because you are unskilled and your boat is a wreck you can still just head out. It is still sort of a free country. No one can tell you what the weather will be only what it might be.
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  #258  
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

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Originally Posted by GeorgeB View Post
Again, nothing has been offered in this discussion to suggest ISAF Cat1 or SAS certificates would have had any impact on the outcome for those five boats.
I think this is a true and accurate statement. Anybody else?
John
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  #259  
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgeB View Post

Again, nothing has been offered in this discussion to suggest ISAF Cat1 or SAS certificates would have had any impact on the outcome for those five boats.
Nah, c'mon George...

Surely, an ISAF pre-race inspection would have foretold the likely delamination of the bulkheads on a Morgan OI 41, the rig failure on a Hans Christian 38, and the rudder failure on that Catalina 42.... :-)
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  #260  
Old 11-13-2013
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Quote:
Originally Posted by chall03 View Post
Everyone wants a higher standard of safety. Thats a given.

In the examples above though I showed you how bluntly applying ISAF regs, would not necesarily lead to that inproved safety, but rather increased red tape, added expense and moves the focus away taking responsbility for one's own backside.

As an aside, please remember ISAF regs are racing regs. They were not conceived for doublehanded cruising boats. In several ways they do not take into account the differences between a full crew pushing a boat to it's limit, and Martin and Mary doublehanding their way to the Carribean.
Chall, it seems you don't know ISAF safety regs. they have nothing to do with racing but with general safety. They assume that a race boat takes more risks than a cruising one and so they are more demanding on the needed equipment in what regards safety.

But safety is never too much and in some circumstances the risks taken by cruisers are bigger than the ones taken by racers (look at this rally). A double or solo crewed boat can be a lot more demanding facing bad weather then a racing boat with a much bigger crew.

http://www.sailing.org/tools/documen...s1to605012012-[11791].pdf

http://www.sailing.org/tools/documen...2012Mo1240112-[11793].pdf

But rallies like ARC provides much more in what regards safety than a mandatory list of equipment for the boats. Have a look:

http://www.worldcruising.com/arc/safety.aspx

Take a look of what this crew that is making the ARC+ on a 34ft says:

Corona Aq our L32 started in the first ARC 1986, time to Barbados. Now, 27 years later, we signed up for ARC +....

We have had seminars, and safety training for nearly two weeks. He had practice of getting up in a life raft when the boat is sinking. We have also trained in firing flares. At the seminars, we have studied including rigging, sails in downwind sailing, route and weather conditions. we have learned some new things. Moreover, we have gained a lot of new safety equipment.


http://www.corona-aq.blogspot.pt/

They are a prof that this kind of rally are not only for rich with big and new boats. Old and small boats like this one can make the rally....and they are doing a hell of a rally, sailing very well for old salty dogs.

http://www.worldcruising.com/arc/eventfleetviewer.aspx


Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 11-13-2013 at 11:01 PM.
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