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  #261  
Old 11-13-2013
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

For people who have found PCP's links are not working, here are working versions
First one
Second one

--
Off Topic, but from fixing the links - what's with SailNet tracking the links we click on now? Is this a new thing or something that I've missed all along?
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  #262  
Old 11-13-2013
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Chall, it seems you don't know ISAF safety regs. they have nothing to do with racing but with general safety. They assume that a race boat takes more risks than a cruising one and so they are more demanding on the needed equipment in what regards safety.

But safety is never too much and in some circumstances the risks taken by cruisers are bigger than the ones taken by racers (look at this rally). A double or solo crewed boat can be a lot more demanding facing bad weather then a racing boat with a much bigger crew.

http://www.sailing.org/tools/documen...s1to605012012-[11791].pdf

http://www.sailing.org/tools/documen...2012Mo1240112-[11793].pdf

But ARC provides much more in what regards safety than a mandatory list of equipment for the boats. Have a look:

Safety


Paulo
A bit patronising perhaps Paulo???

I do know ISAF regs.

They are very much about racing, to say otherwise is naive. I standby my point - Which actually appears to be then same as yours, that is that it is far riskier being a double handed cruising boat in bad weather than a racing boat full of big guys. Also as a doublehanded cruising boat your approach to handling various situations needs to be quite different to that of a racing vessel. (EG. Thinking about thowing a large heavy liferafts over lifelines....).

You can argue the detail, and I am happy to, but cruising is different to ocean racing. Period.

All the documents you have googled and are madly linking too, I have printed out, binded, underlined, been to seminars about, sat on commitees for and advised others on for the past 10 years.

Have a look at how ISAF regs have been adapted and changed for cruising here.
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  #263  
Old 11-13-2013
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgeB View Post
So am I understanding this correctly? Smack will be conducting a damage control school on the Smacktanic so we can be certified to sail in a rally? If you are taking reservations, I’d like to be in the first class 'cause that boat is going to get real beat up. Just saying.

The way I see it, Smack can either fork over the big bucks and do the Carib 1500, or plunk down little bucks and do the informal (and less stringent) SDR or he can pay no money and do it on his own. No point in making SDR the same thing as the C1500. Every skipper who slips the mooring lines is responsible for his crew, his boat and himself. Don’t abrogate your responsibility as a skipper by assigning it to a rally sponsor. Read those release forms before you sign them.

...Smack, you need to get more confident in your sailing skills so you make whatever passage you do as uneventful as possible and stop looking for others to make sure you are up to it.
I'll be taking the SAS seminar this spring. And I'll use the ISAF regs to continue to equip our boat and ourselves for our upcoming trips. And I'll continue to do off-shore races and deliveries to continue to build my skillset. In other words I'll prepare us and our boat like an ocean racer would (even though we'll just be cruising for the most part) - and I'll learn from others while I continue to build my own confidence and skills as a skipper. I'll do this because I believe in these standards. They are good standards that make good sailors. Then I'll shove off and do it when I feel I'm ready.

That's pretty much the way learning is done. You might see it as "looking for others to make sure you are up to it". I don't. And you being a racer - you don't either.

Advocating higher safety standards for a rally doesn't mean ANY abrogation of personal responsibility at all on the part of the skipper. If you really believe that, you don't really race...because you know good and well that racers don't abrogate their responsibilities to the organizer. It simply sets a higher bar that you have to live up to as a skipper. And that's a good thing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgeB View Post
Again, nothing has been offered in this discussion to suggest ISAF Cat1 or SAS certificates would have had any impact on the outcome for those five boats.
I'm not sure how you would ever prove something like that in any situation. If that's the kind of "proof" you and Jon are looking for - you're going to be looking for a while.

It's like saying nothing has been offered in this discussion to suggest that Oracle 1 would not have capsized had they just put another $5M into her.

Wha...?

What you guys CAN "prove" if you want to force your squirelly logic is this (at least to this point...knock on wood):

2013 Carib 1500 = 0 SAR Missions
2013 SDR = 5 SAR Missions

Which of these is using ISAF-based standards?
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Last edited by smackdaddy; 11-13-2013 at 11:11 PM.
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  #264  
Old 11-13-2013
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Quote:
Originally Posted by chall03 View Post
A bit patronising perhaps Paulo???

I do know ISAF regs.

They are very much about racing, to say otherwise is naive. ....

You can argue the detail, and I am happy to, but cruising is different to ocean racing. Period.
I do not agree and I am not the only one. On most European countries to go offshore you have to have a Class A boat like it is demanded on the ISAF safety rules and have to equip it with about the same safety equipment that is demanded by ISAF.

That does not happen by accident but because safety for a crew offshore and the required equipment is not fundamentally different in a sailboat, racing or cruising offshore. Sailing is sailing, a storm is a storm and a crew is a crew be it racing or cruising. You can also race solo or in duo.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chall03 View Post

All the documents you have googled and are madly linking too, I have printed out, binded, underlined, been to seminars about, sat on commitees for and advised others on for the past 10 years.
I don't know what you mean, Bentsailor has kindly re-posted the ISAF links and I provided a translation of the relevant parts of what is in Swedish on that link regarding the safety exercises and seminars provided by the ARC.

You have taken that from the quote, I will post it again improving a bit the translation:

"Corona Aq our L32 made the first ARC in 1986. Now, 27 years later, we signed up again for ARC +....

We have had seminars, and safety training for nearly two weeks. He had practicing getting up in a life raft when the boat is sinking. We have also trained firing flares. At the seminars, we have studied rigging, sails in downwind sailing, route and weather conditions. We have learned some new things. Moreover, we have gained a lot of new safety equipment."




Regards

Paulo
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  #265  
Old 11-13-2013
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
I'll be taking the SAS seminar this spring. And I'll use the ISAF regs to continue to equip our boat and ourselves for our upcoming trips. And I'll continue to do off-shore races and deliveries to continue to build my skillset. In other words I'll prepare us and our boat like an ocean racer would (even though we'll just be cruising for the most part) - and I'll learn from others while I continue to build my own confidence and skills as a skipper. I'll do this because I believe in these standards. They are good standards that make good sailors. Then I'll shove off and do it when I feel I'm ready.

That's pretty much the way learning is done. You might see it as "looking for others to make sure you are up to it". I don't. And you being a racer - you don't either.
Smack that is pretty much what I did. Nothing wrong with that at all and everything right with it.

Once you get a bit further down the track you might find though that you also end up adapting, adding( or even modifying ) the regs to what you believe is best for your boat...you might read a bit of Beth Leonard and Morgans Cloud and develop your own thoughts.
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  #266  
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
I do not agree and I am not the only one. On most European countries to go offshore you have to have a Class A boat like it is demanded on the ISAF safety rules and have to equip it with about the same safety equipment that is demanded by ISAF.

That does not happen by accident but because safety for a crew offshore and the required equipment is not fundamentally different in a sailboat, racing or cruising offshore. Sailing is sailing, a storm is a storm and a crew is a crew be it racing or cruising. You can also race solo or in duo.



I don't know what you mean, Bentsailor has kindly re-posted the ISAF links and I provided a translation of the relevant parts of what is in Swedish on that link regarding the safety exercises and seminars provided by the ARC.

You have taken that from the quote, I will post it again improving a bit the translation:

"Corona Aq our L32 made the first ARC in 1986. Now, 27 years later, we signed up again for ARC +....

We have had seminars, and safety training for nearly two weeks. He had practicing getting up in a life raft when the boat is sinking. We have also trained firing flares. At the seminars, we have studied rigging, sails in downwind sailing, route and weather conditions. We have learned some new things. Moreover, we have gained a lot of new safety equipment."




Regards

Paulo
Europe has a different ummm philosophy to sailing perhaps??? New Zealand also requires CAT 1 of all boats heading overseas.

I am not saying that the regs are irrelevent for cruising......just not perfect.

Hey I think what I think and you think what you think. That's ok.
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  #267  
Old 11-14-2013
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Quote:
Originally Posted by chall03 View Post
Smack that is pretty much what I did. Nothing wrong with that at all and everything right with it.

Once you get a bit further down the track you might find though that you also end up adapting, adding( or even modifying ) the regs to what you believe is best for your boat...you might read a bit of Beth Leonard and Morgans Cloud and develop your own thoughts.
Thanks Chall. I've read a lot of Beth and Evans' stuff (they actually helped me with my article) - as well as Morgans Cloud blog, etc.

But this is precisely what I mean by the need for standards like this. You have to "develop your own thoughts", yes - but those thoughts have to start with something. At this point in my "sailing career" ISAF is just about the best "something" I've found. And it's widely accepted by the best sailors in the world as good stuff. That's good enough for me.

Look, the bottom line is this: I, Smackdaddy, currently technically meet the requirements to do the SDR. I now have almost 1,500 miles of off-shore racing and delivery experience. BUT, I'm absolutely NOT ready for a passage like that - ESPECIALLY in November. Yet I could do it if I wanted to.

Personally, I'd much rather do something like the Carib 1500. And this is precisely because I'd have to learn and equip a lot more before I could even qualify. That's okay with me. It's all GREAT STUFF to learn. And I'm not just rolling the dice like I would be in the SDR.

As you say, maybe down the road I'll roll my eyes a bit at the ISAF regs. But I'm definitely not there yet. I respect them - and want to learn them.

That any sailor would NOT want to learn as much as he/she can about safety, and work up to that standard, is way beyond me.
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  #268  
Old 11-14-2013
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

I'm sorry gentlemen and ladies, I really tried to stay out of this, but I just can't.
I've made a dozen or so voyages from the NE to the Caribbean, even one around early February on a 50 footer (there was 2' of snow on the boat when we arrived in Glen Cove, NY to pick up the boat), and I've never had the kind of problems that seem to be popping up with an uncomfortable regularity these days.
Leaving from the mid-Atlantic states is supposed to circumvent the gulfstream/north Atlantic run to Bermuda that has always been a very difficult and frankly, horrible weather trip, at times. Six hours of 40 to 50 knots from the SE followed soon after by a short 4 hour blow of 70 knots from the west; unforecast and unnoticed by any weather service, is not all that unusual when crossing the gulfstream, up there. I've never had an easy, pleasant cake walk to Bermuda from the NE.
Long before gps, satellite weather and offshore rescue, sailors have been making these crossings to the Caribbean without all this drama.
Anyone leaving the mid Atlantic has to know that they will be beating in tradewind conditions (or worse) for about a 1000 miles. Maybe they don't understand what that means, maybe they think they are capable of it because they've made a down wind crossing, I don't know.
I have NEVER had an injury aboard any vessel I was operating, worse than broken fingers, toes or a cracked rib or two and those usually happened in mild weather when everybody was perhaps a bit too relaxed. We've never had to turn around, or call for help, were it available. When it's rough, we do not put ourselves in a position to be injured. We take care. We sleep on the floor, rather than chance being thrown out of a bunk, for instance.
If we were taking on more water than the pumps could handle, then we slowed the ingress; we had no choice; there was nobody to call for help, there weren't even liferafts, early on.
Maybe I've just been lucky, if you can call being capsized three times in a hurricane on a 65 year old wooden boat lucky. In 2010, it was pretty frightening to be standing on the bow, wrestling down a jib in 50 knots of wind, running ddw, peering at the hole below you that seemed to be the entrance to Hades. But when the sail was below on the salon floor, and we'd hove to under the stay sail, that sail was a pretty comfortable bed for an exhausted crew.
I'm sorry, but in this world, we must all be responsible for our own actions and I don't think rally organizers should bear the responsibility for these sailors. If they chose to sail offshore, then they should be capable and able to take anything the weather might dish out. It doesn't make any difference at all what the forecast is, if a front is moving at 15 knots, when you are on a 6 knot boat, offshore. Once you are out there, there you are. Chris Parker probably isn't going to be able to forecast that squall with 60+ knots of wind on the leading edge. But if you are on watch, on the darkest night and you know what to look for, you'll get your all gear down, immediately, before it hits you!
It's called seamanship and it can't be gotten from books, or you tube. It's gotten by going out there in a well found boat and taking your licks and learning lessons. Safety equipment is not a good trade for common sense or experience. Rules and regulations are not the answer, I don't think, or this sport might once again become only for the rich.
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  #269  
Old 11-14-2013
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Quote:
Originally Posted by capta View Post
I'm sorry gentlemen and ladies, I really tried to stay out of this, but I just can't.
I've made a dozen or so voyages from the NE to the Caribbean, even one around early February on a 50 footer (there was 2' of snow on the boat when we arrived in Glen Cove, NY to pick up the boat), and I've never had the kind of problems that seem to be popping up with an uncomfortable regularity these days.
Leaving from the mid-Atlantic states is supposed to circumvent the gulfstream/north Atlantic run to Bermuda that has always been a very difficult and frankly, horrible weather trip, at times. Six hours of 40 to 50 knots from the SE followed soon after by a short 4 hour blow of 70 knots from the west; unforecast and unnoticed by any weather service, is not all that unusual when crossing the gulfstream, up there. I've never had an easy, pleasant cake walk to Bermuda from the NE.
Long before gps, satellite weather and offshore rescue, sailors have been making these crossings to the Caribbean without all this drama.
Anyone leaving the mid Atlantic has to know that they will be beating in tradewind conditions (or worse) for about a 1000 miles. Maybe they don't understand what that means, maybe they think they are capable of it because they've made a down wind crossing, I don't know.
I have NEVER had an injury aboard any vessel I was operating, worse than broken fingers, toes or a cracked rib or two and those usually happened in mild weather when everybody was perhaps a bit too relaxed. We've never had to turn around, or call for help, were it available. When it's rough, we do not put ourselves in a position to be injured. We take care. We sleep on the floor, rather than chance being thrown out of a bunk, for instance.
If we were taking on more water than the pumps could handle, then we slowed the ingress; we had no choice; there was nobody to call for help, there weren't even liferafts, early on.
Maybe I've just been lucky, if you can call being capsized three times in a hurricane on a 65 year old wooden boat lucky. In 2010, it was pretty frightening to be standing on the bow, wrestling down a jib in 50 knots of wind, running ddw, peering at the hole below you that seemed to be the entrance to Hades. But when the sail was below on the salon floor, and we'd hove to under the stay sail, that sail was a pretty comfortable bed for an exhausted crew.
I'm sorry, but in this world, we must all be responsible for our own actions and I don't think rally organizers should bear the responsibility for these sailors. If they chose to sail offshore, then they should be capable and able to take anything the weather might dish out. It doesn't make any difference at all what the forecast is, if a front is moving at 15 knots, when you are on a 6 knot boat, offshore. Once you are out there, there you are. Chris Parker probably isn't going to be able to forecast that squall with 60+ knots of wind on the leading edge. But if you are on watch, on the darkest night and you know what to look for, you'll get your all gear down, immediately, before it hits you!
It's called seamanship and it can't be gotten from books, or you tube. It's gotten by going out there in a well found boat and taking your licks and learning lessons. Safety equipment is not a good trade for common sense or experience. Rules and regulations are not the answer, I don't think, or this sport might once again become only for the rich.
Thanks Capta. Having guys like you around reminds guys like me that we don't know crap. Thanks for sharing your experience and perspective.

Given the choice I think I would be on your boat for a crossing regardless of whether you had the required amount of spare torch batteries for CAT 1
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  #270  
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

What's interesting to me about this thread is that, for the most part, it is the most experienced sailors who don't want more "regulation" in rallies such as the SDR (though I doubt they'd ever do this rally - it's more the principal of it - which is fine). The point being that the skipper has the ultimate responsibility and shouldn't need - or doesn't need - anyone telling him/her how to run the ship. He knows his boat - he knows what he's doing.

This is absolutely right and makes absolute sense - especially for those skippers with the level of experience these guys have. Where it falls down a bit is with those skippers who don't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by capta View Post
If they chose to sail offshore, then they should be capable and able to take anything the weather might dish out.
You're right. They should be. But completing a "single bluewater passage" is a very low bar of experience for what you're talking about capta. Rally aside - I think you'd agree with that.

A simple fix for this would be at least raising the entry bar so that sailors like you are out there making good decisions. Otherwise, you can't really bemoan the "less experienced" guys who are making distress calls for water ingress, dismasting etc. (things you might never make a call for). Aren't they just doing what their level of experience directs them to do?

You can't have it both ways.

Quote:
Originally Posted by capta View Post
It's called seamanship and it can't be gotten from books, or you tube. It's gotten by going out there in a well found boat and taking your licks and learning lessons. Safety equipment is not a good trade for common sense or experience.
I agree with you to a large extent. But if I were to say this - I'd get hammered. This "just go out there" approach works for you guys who already have a great deal of experience. You guys get a pass if things go pear-shaped. For those who don't, if/when they get in trouble they are "idiots" because they weren't prepared...not sailors who are just out there "taking licks and learning lessons". There are plenty of threads on SN where this is in full display.

So, unfortunately, what you lay out just doesn't work in reality for those who don't have your level of experience. For those sailors, safety equipment and knowledge is not a "trade off" - it IS "common sense".
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Last edited by smackdaddy; 11-14-2013 at 12:10 PM.
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