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  #271  
Old 11-14-2013
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

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New Zealand also requires CAT 1 of all boats heading overseas.
Ah... no just the NZ flagged boats though they have had a few problems with departing foriegn registered boats.

A guy I know converted his boat to Cat. 1 in NZ. He said it cost him about 100,000NZD to do it. That's not a typo and, prior to converting, the boat was being actively raced so was not a work in progress.
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  #272  
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

I agree with you to a large extent. But if I were to say this - I'd get hammered. This "just go out there" approach works for you guys who already have a great deal of experience. You guys get a pass if things go pear-shaped. For those who don't, if/when they get in trouble they are "idiots" because they weren't prepared...not sailors who are just out there "taking licks and learning lessons". There are plenty of threads on SN where this is in full display.
So, unfortunately, what you lay out just doesn't work in reality for those who don't have your level of experience. For those sailors, safety equipment and knowledge is not a "trade off" - it IS "common sense".[/QUOTE]
Smack,
I wasn't born with the knowledge and experience.
I was raised on the west coast and believe me, it's a lot tougher coast to gain experience on than the right one, with very few safe places to find shelter and many of those with bars.
Every one of us had to go out there in a well found boat and take our licks, without the benefit of the of the "get out of jail, free" card so many are relying on today.
Our boats were heavy, ponderous vessels that could take pretty much whatever Neptune decided to throw at us, though being wooden, they did tended to leak considerably more than the glass boats of today.
But we learned, and after a bunch of coastal trips, often in horrendous conditions, we set off on the adventure of a lifetime and slid across to Hawaii, a trip, as I've said many times, an old lady in a bath tub could make. But getting back is a whole other story!
Perhaps that is the biggest difference; what is considered a "well found" boat today, wasn't even dreamed of in those days. Spade rudders, fractional rigs, alloy spars and glued together hull/deck joints were not the kind of boats available to sailors before the seventies.
I'm not a "world class sailor" I don't think, but I am comfortable in any weather, out there. I sail quite conservatively, preferring not to break things or risk the lives of those sailing with me, for a few extra miles a day. When I was young and learning to sail, I was fortunate enough to have a few real "Cape Horners" (see my signature) to listen to and learn from. People like Miles Smeeton ("Once is Enough") wrote books that were not sea stories, but primers on how to survive a catastrophe at sea.
We all learn at our own pace, but the sea couldn't care less about us, our boats or whether we can handle what she is dishing out; it's nothing personal. If you might get seasick, why would you attempt a thousand miles of windward sailing in the ocean? If you are not comfortable in winds over 40 knots and seas of 12 feet or more, why would you want to almost certainly have to experience it?
This thing we all love, sailing, is not rocket science; folks have been doing it for something like 4000 years. And without a cat 1 rating, life rafts and even boats that could go to windward at all. Most survived; some didn't. If we want to do this, then it is in our best interests to gain all the experience we can, choose a boat suitable for our plans and meet every challenge as a learning experience and reap the rewards of conquering our fears and getting through the difficult parts on our own, not asking others to risk their lives to save us from a completely survivable situation.
Perhaps I am too cocky, with too many years of sailing, to remember the early days of learning through making mistakes, and a bit too critical of others less experienced than I, but I truly think many people are purchasing the wrong boats and relying on safety equipment and rescue, to compensate for their lack of knowledge and preparedness. It is supposed to be fun, a joyous experience of men and women on the sea, alone out there and at peace with nature. The good times should vastly outnumber the bad.
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  #273  
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

the more I learned to sail better and be seamanlike the less I became attached to modern safety equipment...except for a few things that aid navigation ive become a simplicity and KISS advocate...

I also like redundancy but redundancy is often confused with quantity...nowadays you are considered unsafe if you dont have ais, ssb, 2 liferafts 2 dinghies 2 outboards, satelite phone, the works...

yet people forget that ones boat is ones liferaft...very few people nowadays look at the boat in question, they look at the "gear"

times have changed...and Im young but do know this...
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  #274  
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

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Originally Posted by capta View Post
...
Maybe I've just been lucky, if you can call being capsized three times in a hurricane on a 65 year old wooden boat lucky. ....
No, I would not call luck to be capsized three times in an hurricane on a 65 year old boat. I call luck to have got away with it

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  #275  
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

By 1995 I had done multiple Marion/Bermuda and a Newport Bermuda race as well as several passages to Caribbean. But then in 2002 stopped sailing for 8yrs. The world has changed in those 8yrs. Before no one would contemplate heading offshore except in a fully found boat with all available safety equipment and appropriate crew knowing even the crew with the highest skill set and best weather routing runs a risk of possible gear failure and untoward weather. Resuming offshore sailing these realities remain in spite of recent advances. In my circle of passagemakers I known of no one who does not accept these past and current realities. Once my current boat is fully outfitted and my ( wife's) physical and intellectual skill set brought to appropriate current levels my wife and I will resume not just offshore passages but ocean passages.
To make judgment on either the weather router, the vessel prep or the crew/captain without detailed knowledge of a preventable deficit speaks to the accuser's ignorance of the realities of ocean sailing even with the advances of the last ten years.
As they say "SH-t happens".
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  #276  
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

AIS- foolish to go any where near shipping lanes without it
liferaft with in date inspection- boats sink surprisingly fast- foolish to not have one even if just offshore let alone ocean
sat phone +/or SSB- weather routing progressively less accurate as days go by- usually near worthless after 96h and not even generated for the sailor in meaningful way past 5d. Nice to know- may save your life. Also maybe needed for rescue. Yes I have a recording barometer and my eyes on the clouds but these are rentable and very useful. Cost is not prohibitive.
Radar- tells you local weather and many fish boats don't show up on AIS. Guess what 1/2 your sailing is at night.
The racing requirements make sense. We use them even though we are very conservative, modestly ambitious cruisers. Want to prevent your reading my name in the paper.
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  #277  
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottUK View Post
Ah... no just the NZ flagged boats though they have had a few problems with departing foriegn registered boats.

A guy I know converted his boat to Cat. 1 in NZ. He said it cost him about 100,000NZD to do it. That's not a typo and, prior to converting, the boat was being actively raced so was not a work in progress.
Yes your absoluetely right.

Sorry that's what I mean't, just not what I said
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Last edited by chall03; 11-14-2013 at 04:28 PM. Reason: can't type
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  #278  
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

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Originally Posted by christian.hess View Post
yet people forget that ones boat is ones liferaft...very few people nowadays look at the boat in question, they look at the "gear"..
Well said.
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  #279  
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Wholeheartedly agree leaving your boat is the last thing you want to do. I have my life earnings in my boat. I love my boat. My chances for survival decrease dramatically if I leave my boat. But having AIS, radar, SSB/satphone etc. means it much less likely I'm going to be hit by weather I could have avoided or at least prepared for or that freighter will sink me. Yes truly foolish to head out to sea in a boat not prepared and built for it. But still think the safety gear decreases risk you will lose the boat or your life.
Lynn/Larry said "you can't buy safety" and they are right. But you can improve your odds with a prepped strong boat, good skill set, and equipment.
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Last edited by outbound; 11-14-2013 at 04:54 PM.
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

you cant argue against the above...that is how I think too, having said that MANY many new sailors or novices tend to think equipment saves them and it simply doesnt...

for example as a counterpoint to all the equipment listed before here is my take:

liferaft= to me that means a flotational dinghy that serves both as a liferaft and as a dinghy for normal use, prefferably with a sail kit that would enable more chances if survival by being able to sail somewhere

A liferaft is almost useless once deployed(you cant sail it, and if you havent been able to send a mayday or a correct epirb signal youre as bad as in any uncommunicated vessel) and the amount of people who dont service them correctly is id say around 50%...and even those inspected have been known to NOT deploy, JUST SAYIN.

ais=good watches by skilled crew, if solo I would think about it if going through torres straight or the red sea, etc...or just get their receiver...

radar? the number of boats Ive been on who say its been useful to them in a circumnav is close to zero...fog and HEAVY shipping lanes its ok, having said that on the boat I completed close to a circumnavigation we used it twice...

ssb= great for keeping your spirits up when lonely...good for boat to boat communication long range and ok for sending out urgent info and or calls for help I say ok cause there is always the chance that it will get wet and fail at the worst time, LIKE ANY electrical equipment.

satphone= I still like the idea...and would probably rent one if I raced an ocean race or something, but I wouldnt say leaving port without one as being unsafe.

epirb= yeah, they are cheap now compared to 20 years ago...honestly depending on where id cruise now I think spot messengers are a better deal...but thats just my opinion!

lastly id think more about having potable water, food...redundant systems like a gps, batteries, flares and liferaft equipment ready to go in a ditchbag in a dinghy than having your boat become the next nasa space shuttle...BUT again thats just my opinion.

cheers
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