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  #281  
Old 11-14-2013
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Smack, I keep forgetting about your actual experience level. What is telling is you refer to things like SAS attendance and ISAF compliance in the future tense. You even gone so far as offer curriculum changes (how to abandon your boat and be rescued) without having actually attended a seminar or have any practical experience. SAS is merely a seminar meant to augment an already established knowledge/ experience base and the ISAF Special Regulations is a pamphlet and check sheet. They by themselves, will not magically keep you from harm.

Your statement that you could join the SDR with your admitted lack of experience, but you will wait until you can qualify for the C1500 still indicates that you expect others to tell you (through their requirements) that you a ready for such a trip. Remember and learn from Regatta Dog’s unfortunate voyage – The Transpac has both the SAS and ISAF requirements and a lot more – actual inspections, resumes, drills etc. – And look what happened to them. Grasshopper, I will let you know when it is time for you to voyage on your own. But first, you must snatch this pebble from my hand…



The ISAF requirement for a successful rally is a spurious one. Nowhere has it been stated that the boats that had problems were not Cat 1 compliant. If you want to draw any wild conclusions, it should be that it is better to adhere to a strict schedule than let skippers decide themselves on the appropriate time to leave within an open ended window. Remember the C1500 had a single departure date and the SDR a suggested “window”. What is more important here is the fact that out of six vessels declaring emergencies including four boats with rudder problems and two dismasting’s, only two boats were ultimately abandoned. The sailors who were able to jury rig ought to be commended for their superior seamanship and not denigrated for having bad luck.
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Last edited by GeorgeB; 11-14-2013 at 07:32 PM.
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  #282  
Old 11-14-2013
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Christian- Your comments are greatly appreciated and clearly grounded in experienced good judgment. For present I'm not circumnavigating and expect I never will. I plain to do ocean passages in the context of a cruising lifestyle. For present have been doing 3-6d passages that involve multiple crossings of shipping lanes and dealing with fish boats, barges/tows, folks on charter boats and all the head aches of marine traffic. This clearly skews my thinking and suggests the need for radar/AIS etc.
The spot is a good idea. We have a 48h EPIRB on a bracket next to the ditchbag, a spot on my harness and a personal 24h epirb on the admiral's harness. Our thinking is the vast majorities of rescues occur within a day or two in the waters we travel -sometimes hours.
We have a raft in a built in box by the sugarscoop. It's light so she can deploy it. Our thinking is to only deploy it in case of uncontrolled fire or rapid sinking. We have beyond the supplies in the raft food/water/first aid supplies in the ditchbag.
But the boat is the thing. It has a watertight bulkhead forward and true set up for storm sails/Jordan series drogue. Its a strong well built boat that's comfortable in a seaway. We are learning in increments about our boat and ourselves. This year have done three 450m+ passages. Next year have two 750-1300m passages planed. We cruise with 2-4 people on board. We hope to ultimately to be able to do our passages with just two.
Problem I have is with folks not willing to accept the needed work on themselves and their boats and their equipment with the expectation- nothing will break, it will always be 10-20 on the aft quarter and if things get bad they can just call for help and bail out.
I don't see how any of the boats in the salty dawg fit that description.
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Last edited by outbound; 11-14-2013 at 07:17 PM.
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  #283  
Old 11-14-2013
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

youve done more than most ever will regarding their boat...my first big cruise was on my leaky wooden h28...no such thing as watertight anything on that boat! jajaaj did that stop me? no

(we only took epirb for example because it was a requirement for the baja ha ha rally from california to mexico)

95% cruisers dont ever add watertight bulkheads, most never add dedicated storm sails...etc..etc...

I cant tell you the amount of people that take 100 cases of toilet paper, and half of costcos supllies in food etc...instead of focusing on other stuff
honestly you cant learn to cruise coastal or offshore unless you start doing it, you do learn A LOT along the way...racing the learning curve is exponentially higher as you are taking everything to the limit and then some...

anyways...I like it when skippers and crew put more responsibilty on themselves than on gear and in some cases the boat

we used to run into A lot if cruisers who had the autopilot on LEAVING port for example...I mean seconds after hauling anchor...they had it all planned out to the T...that mentality is damaging and negligent...crusiing and even racing offshore is a delicate balancing act of COMPROMISE


cheers

sorry for the thread derail btw
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  #284  
Old 11-14-2013
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Lots here that's not quite right.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgeB View Post
Smack, I keep forgetting about your actual experience level. What is telling is you refer to things like SAS attendance and ISAF compliance in the future tense. You even gone so far as offer curriculum changes (how to abandon your boat and be rescued) without having actually attended a seminar or have any practical experience. SAS is merely a seminar meant to augment an already established knowledge/ experience base and the ISAF Special Regulations is pamphlet and check sheet. They by themselves, will not magically keep you from harm.
It's true I've not yet personally attended an SAS seminar. But I had conversations with Sheila McCurdy and Ron Trossbach about the SAS curriculum. Those conversations were not about "changing the curriculum" - but potentially adding the AMVER info to it. Those conversations are continuing. So I understand what SAS (and ISAF) is and what it isn't.

Furthermore, the information I provided in the article is directly from the experts - not me. As a writer, I don't have to personally experience climbing from a sailboat onto a freighter in the middle of the Pacific to pull together accurate information about the process. I just have to talk to the right people. And I did (e.g. - USCG AMVER Director and SAR controller, three ship captains, and others).

Bottom line: I'm not trying to be something I'm not, George. This is just information that I find very valuable as an avid sailor learning to be a better sailor. I think other sailors find it valuable as well.

The fundamental problem is that the number of U.S. sailors seeking out voluntary safety training is very, very low. If you value safety and the knowledge surrounding it - and understand the impact it has on how sailors deal with emergencies (and the implications of that) - then you understand that this is a problem. My position is that any organization that promotes big passages like this is a great place to expand that training and knowledge. Nothing more than that.

As for ISAF and SAS "magically keeping you from harm" - I don't think anyone but you has floated that ridiculous notion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgeB View Post
Your statement that you could join the SDR with your admitted lack of experience, but you will wait until you can qualify for the C1500 still indicates that you expect others to tell you (through their requirements) that you a ready for such a trip.

Grasshopper, I will let you know when it is time for you to voyage on your own. But first, you must snatch this pebble from my hand…

Those aren't pebbles dude. And you're really not getting it.

My statement about not joining the SDR because of my lack of experience is fully my own assessment of where I currently stand in terms of offshore knowledge and experience. I don't need anyone, including you, to tell me whether or not I'm ready for a passage. I know for myself. I'm just being honest about my own assessment. I'm not blowing smoke.

I'll attend an SAS seminar and I'll use the ISAF regs as educational/preparation tools because I see value in them - and I'll continue to sail offshore to build experience. If you think that equates to "asking permission to go", you really are blind, Master Po.

My point on this regarding the SDR is that I currently meet the requirements to go...as does someone with even far fewer offshore miles than I have (a "single bluewater passage"). Going back to what capta said above - I think that would be a very bad idea for that level of experience.

So, I'm left to assume that you're saying a single bluewater passage is plenty of experience for a November Gulfstream passage from the Chessie to the BVIs...and that safety training and standards are for wusses who need permission.

Well, I don't buy that. Period.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgeB View Post
The ISAF requirement for a successful rally is a spurious one. Nowhere has it been stated that the boats that had problems were not Cat 1 compliant.
ISAF's not at all "spurious" unless you want to assume it "magically protects" sailors. And what exactly are your definitions of a "successful" rally?

Again, ISAF is simply a safety/preparation standard. And if you're one who believes in high safety standards, utilizing the ISAF standard AND/OR upping the experience-level/qualifications for entry would be a very good thing.

It's weird. You really seem threatened by this. I've not seen you this aggro about something in all the years I've been posting here. And it's especially weird that you are an ocean racer and operate under these regs - but don't seem to see the value in them for cruisers.

Whatever. I suppose we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgeB View Post
If you want to draw any wild conclusions, it should be that it is better to adhere to a strict schedule than let skippers decide themselves on the appropriate time to leave within an open ended window. Remember the C1500 had a single departure date and the SDR a suggested “window”. What is more important here is the fact that out of six vessels declaring emergencies including four boats with rudder problems and two dismasting’s, only two boats were ultimately abandoned. The sailors who were able to jury rig ought to be commended for their superior seamanship and not denigrated for having bad luck.
I'll let you fight the schedule thing out with Jon - because he was saying the exact opposite regarding a strict departure date.

Finally, I don't recall ever denigrating these sailors. My constant focus has been on the organizational side of things. Those sailors that did the jury rigging should indeed be commended. But I don't yet understand from the info thus far whether Maydays were sent first - which would be a potential issue (back to how sailors deal with emergencies).
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Last edited by smackdaddy; 11-14-2013 at 09:10 PM.
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  #285  
Old 11-14-2013
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Regarding the one that we are talking about I showed some surprise that all or most the boats sailed away to one of the most difficult passages with a forecast of 25K winds. To my surprise JonEisberg said that with the weather forecast that had been released those conditions were predictable.

I asked him then, why those sailors went out on that date? He said I had to ask them.

Clearly it seems it was not a good choice and it seems that if someone with the experience of Jon was responsible to set a day for sailing away on that rally he would have not allowed that some relatively inexperienced sailors (among other experienced crews) went out on that particular timing.

How can someone not understand the advantages of having a truly experienced sailor setting the departure date for a rally, in what regards safety on a passage?
Paulo, we're talking about setting out from a point north of Cape Hatteras, in November... 25 knots of breeze is about the MINIMUM of what one can reasonably expect to encounter at some point on that passage, and if 30 knots is the most you ever see on that run, you're been very fortunate, indeed... Many of the best weather windows for that trip will often include such weather early on, and any sailor who expects they will somehow manage to avoid such conditions during the course of that voyage is delusional :-)

Not to mention, anyone not prepared to encounter considerably more on this trip has no business making it to begin with... To me, this photo clearly indicates this particular skipper hasn't a freakin' CLUE what he is likely to encounter sailing from the Chesapeake to Tortola in November, and yet he is apparently considered 'Good to Go' by the safety inspectors of the Caribbean 1500...



Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post

What you guys CAN "prove" if you want to force your squirelly logic is this (at least to this point...knock on wood):

2013 Carib 1500 = 0 SAR Missions
2013 SDR = 5 SAR Missions

Which of these is using ISAF-based standards?
Well, you choose to dismiss the fact that the 1500 and most of the Salty Dawgs sailed in entirely different weather systems from the outset, but carry on :-)

So, what does ISAF have to say about departure dates, weather windows for this particular passage, or the choice of weather routers? For, IMHO, that was the distinguishing feature that applies to any comparison, here...

Andy Schell claims the 1500 never would have left when most of the SD fleet did, but that's pretty easy to say, in hindsight... I've seen firshand how ill-prepared a rally like the 1500 is, to deal with a weather postponement of more than a week... Make no mistake, they made the right call leaving when they did, I've stated that from the outset. Perhaps Chris Parker missed this one, but he's still the best in the business, and to place blame on the weather routing this year, is just as unseemly as the attempts by some last year to lay the blame for the NARC debacle on Herb Hilgenberg...

Sometimes, the SHTF on this passage, there's not much anyone can do about it, it's really that simple :-)
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  #286  
Old 11-15-2013
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

the amount of windage on that boat makes me cry...!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Old 11-15-2013
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Quote:
Originally Posted by christian.hess View Post
the amount of windage on that boat makes me cry...!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Pound for pound, this Catalina 387 down the dock from me tonight in SC might have that Hylas beat :-)

Gotta love how neatly that Honda 2000 nestles in that stern perch seat, it's like the two were made for each other :-)


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  #288  
Old 11-15-2013
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

What's with all the oxygen tents?
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  #289  
Old 11-15-2013
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

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Originally Posted by aeventyr60 View Post
What's with all the oxygen tents?
Folks are already prepping their boats for the next year's inaugural Rally Down the ICW, where I believe full enclosures will likely be required equipment :-)

SAIL's 2014 Snowbird Rally down the ICW | Sail Magazine
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Quote:
Folks are already prepping their boats for the next year's inaugural Rally Down the ICW, where I believe full enclosures will likely be required equipment :-)

SAIL's 2014 Snowbird Rally down the ICW | Sail Magazine
I see a start, midpoint and finish date listed ... oh the inhumanity of it all!
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