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Rallies Gone Wrong

128K views 960 replies 76 participants last post by  xort 
#1 ·
#15 ·
Re: Offshore Rescues

Sounds like the Salty Dawg Rally is earning an unfortunate reputation:

CG responds to fifth distressed boat

Five freakin' boats pushing the button? With 10'-12' seas reported?

What's going on out there?
Sounds like it's back down to three. One was a false alarm, another managed to rig something up and continue on when they weren't rescued as fast as they expected to be.
 
#5 ·
Re: Offshore Rescues

None of those are my friends which is good.

One taking on water, one dismasted but continuing, one unknown but heading for Bermuda and one refused assistance(crew with broken arm returning). 10'-12' is no big deal for swells or unbreaking waves but if they were steep and breaking than they could be a problem for some boats/sailors.
 
#6 ·
Re: Trouble on Route to the Caribbean

"winds above 25 mph, with ocean swells of 5 to 8 feet."
Pretty sad, IMO, that folks are heading out into the ocean and have trouble bad enough to require calling for help in these conditions.
Something is very, very wrong here.
If this continues we are going to get the kind of government interference that NZ has, that restricts offshore sailors and is very costly to comply with.
"winds above 25 mph, with ocean swells of 5 to 8 feet." is just about what we sail in daily in the Caribbean Christmas winds; certainly nothing beyond the capability of any well found cruising boat.
 
#23 ·
Re: Trouble on Route to the Caribbean

"winds above 25 mph, with ocean swells of 5 to 8 feet."
Pretty sad, IMO, that folks are heading out into the ocean and have trouble bad enough to require calling for help in these conditions.
Something is very, very wrong here.
If this continues we are going to get the kind of government interference that NZ has, that restricts offshore sailors and is very costly to comply with.
"winds above 25 mph, with ocean swells of 5 to 8 feet." is just about what we sail in daily in the Caribbean Christmas winds; certainly nothing beyond the capability of any well found cruising boat.
Yes, but they also got seasick! Time for a rescue....:laugher
 
#7 · (Edited)
So there are now reports of at least five boats that have signaled distress in the new "Salty Dawg Rally". And from what is being reported in the press stories - the conditions don't seem to be all that bad. For example, one quotes the CG as reporting seas of 10'-12'. This is knocking out 5 boats?

This is the link to a now-ironic press release about the "Salty Dawg Rally":

PRESS: New, Free 'Salty Dawg Rally' Going 'Viral' in the Cruising World

It now seems to be going viral for all the wrong reasons.

It seems all that is required from an experience angle to participate in this rally is at least one off-shore passage:

The Salty Dawg Rally is a grassroots, non-profit organization, comprised of blue water sailors who have completed at least one blue water passage. There is no formal inspection of each boat, since it is the responsibility of each skipper to have proper safety equipment and to ensure that the vessel is prepared for the passage. Information including weather, Gulf Stream analysis, location of eddies, and daily weather forecasts during the passage is provided to each skipper by well‐known weather router Chris Parker, courtesy of Blue Water Sailing magazine. Volunteer Dick Giddings manages float plans for all of the boats in the fleet and maintains a daily SSB radio schedule, as well as daily positions for everyone (via HF radio and SatPhone). It is each skipper's responsibility to decide the course and whether or not to set out for the passage. The Rally, with an emphasis on safety, communication, camaraderie and fun, opens the door to new friends and experiences while cruising various areas in the Caribbean.
No boat/safety inspection, etc. This is pretty typical. But then we look back to distress/rescues in past rallies such as the NARC, etc. - and you have to wonder...

Is it merely the statistical concentration of this many boats in one rally - and we're simply seeing the standard ratio of distresses to the number of boats? Or is it something else?

Personally, as a dude that has researched off-shore rescues quite a bit, I'm wondering why these kinds of rallies don't require Safety At Sea training like off-shore racing does. Or why don't they at least enforce ISAF rules?

Seriously, what's the difference in the need for this kind of knowledge between racer and cruiser? Aren't dangerous conditions in a sailboat the same for both? Aren't safety procedures for those sailors roughly the same? Sure, the cruiser is inherently more conservative - but does that mean they can, therefore, be less prepared?

Something's wrong here.
 
#17 ·
Personally, as a dude that has researched off-shore rescues quite a bit, I'm wondering why these kinds of rallies don't require Safety At Sea training like off-shore racing does. Or why don't they at least enforce ISAF rules?

Seriously, what's the difference in the need for this kind of knowledge between racer and cruiser? Aren't dangerous conditions in a sailboat the same for both? Aren't safety procedures for those sailors roughly the same? Sure, the cruiser is inherently more conservative - but does that mean they can, therefore, be less prepared?

Something's wrong here.
Because you don't need that kind of training to do this passage on your own. If you want to go, you go. Many do, some don't make it. Preparation+Luck, etc. If the rally organizers only purport to offer t-shirts, some weather routing and a party in the BVI's at the end, then the rest is up to the skipper.

I'm not a rally person myself, I'd rather pick my own weather windows and not have to worry about getting to a party by some time, but I do think that there is room for this level of event. Should folks be more prepared for what is a pretty serious offshore passage? No doubt. Is it the rally organizers' responsibility to make sure everyone is prepared? I don't really think so other than offering suggestions.

If the loss of boats in a given rally causes participants to realize that they are not actually much safer out there just because they are in a group, then that will probably mean fewer boats in the rally next year, with a greater emphasis on safety, which is a good thing. This will continue until the memory of the lost boats becomes shrouded in the mists of the distant past (typically ~ 5 years) and then once ill prepared sailors will start to fill the rally's numbers. Still, it's the skippers responsibility.

You can lead a horse to water and so forth.
 
#9 ·
Re: Trouble on Route to the Caribbean

I hope the report about the conditions is incorrect (certainly a good possibility), but if it is correct this is ridiculous. Last year crossing the Indian Ocean we had 20 to 30 knots with waves in the 10 to 15 foot range for two weeks. Best sailing of my life and I am hardly the gung-ho, let-it-rip type. It only got windy as we neared South Africa.

I agree with Capta, the nanny state will get us if we don't demonstrate common sense. BTW, for a South African to leave harbour in command of a vessel you need to have local yacht master credentials, not even the British ones are accepted, but 50 knots is pretty common here and the cruising guide talks of waves to 20 m (66 feet) in the Agulhas Current with the wrong wind. Maybe the answer is to get rid of rallies that are any more than social arrangements. They may give false security to people.
 
#11 ·
It's clearly the wrong crew on these boats. EVERYONE with any blue-water experience knows you need a sushi chef as captain and an 80+year old as part of the crew, or the boat just isn't going anywhere.

OK, more seriously, I think events like this will tend to draw two groups:
1) Inexperienced sailors hoping to learn by being around others, and,
2) sailors (both experienced and inexperienced) who have boats that MIGHT make the trip, and with others tagging along nearby they think they'll "just" be able to hitch a ride on one of the other boats if something goes wrong.

Kind of like the charter flotillas, except over a MUCH longer area, and with boats that aren't inspected.
 
#14 ·
It's pretty obvious that these rallies create schedules. Although no set departure is required, people run with the herd. When they see others leaving they follow like lemmings. This weather system could be seen coming DAYS ahead of time. The idea of staying the hell out of the GS with a northerly wind is in sailing 101. You'd have to have your head examined to set off into the GS with this obvious upper level cold front approaching. No matter what any "router" might have said, common sense should have kept these boats at the dock. It seems that they were not prepared to heave to, set a sea anchor, a drogue, or deploy trysl's and storm jibs once it became obvious that they were in for a beating. The decisions to leave AND basic equipment seem to be in question.
 
#16 ·
Re: Trouble on Route to the Caribbean

Perhaps if boats do not have storm sails, a sea anchor and/or drogue, liferaft, and at least one sailor who knows how to heave-to, they should not be allowed to have an EPIRB!
 
#19 ·
Re: Trouble on Route to the Caribbean

Here's more detail from the Coast Guard today:

Coast Guard rescues 4, assists others off Va., NC coasts

I fully concur with "don't go to sea if you can't handle 25+ and 5-8' seas", but this, describing a lost mast on one boat, and arm injury on another, suggests it may have been worse than 25 knots, etc??

Also note that several of the boats (including lost mast) reported they were able to continue on without further assistance. So the Maydays may have been sent just in case it got much worse (ie the mast could have pierced the hull during recovery or cut-away) before it got better.

I, at a nice warm desk on a sunny day, commenteth not further.. ;-)
 
#52 ·
Re: Trouble on Route to the Caribbean

... So the Maydays may have been sent just in case it got much worse (ie the mast could have pierced the hull during recovery or cut-away) before it got better.

I, at a nice warm desk on a sunny day, commenteth not further.. ;-)
Hummm, maybe on the States a Mayday is sent just in case it got much worse. That's not like that in Europe. Authorities may be contacted to report concerns or in case of problems a Pan Pan may be issued but a Mayday is only for real life threatening situations not for possible or eventual life threatening situations.

Regards

Paulo
 
#20 · (Edited)






Mr. and Ms. Tom are in well above average condition and we can only stay wet and cold for X amount of time



In my experience the wet and cold part of this deal has been vastly under estimated as I have never been colder in my life than doing bow in 40 knots in July

It took about a month to dry Zzzoom out after the last trip in those conditions
 
#24 · (Edited)
I don't know all the facts surrounding this rally...but these rallies seem to offer a false sense of security to the inexperienced and unprepared. Once in the soup..everyone has their hands full. It's not like you can all raft up out there and sing kumbya.. With few exceptions, The only one coming to get you is the CG or the Navy.

Leaving a safe port on some arbitrary schedule set months in advance..because you see others doing it without factoring in all the variables: ship, crew, experience, etc is just reckless.
 
#51 ·
I don't know all the facts surrounding this rally...but these rallies seem to offer a false sense of security to the inexperienced and unprepared. Once in the soup..everyone has their hands full. It's not like you can all raft up out there and sing kumbya.. With few exceptions, The only one coming to get you is the CG or the Navy.

Leaving a safe port on some arbitrary schedule set months in advance..because you see others doing it without factoring in all the variables: ship, crew, experience, etc is just reckless.
I agree. Look at the number of boats that are going to make the different "ARC" this November. Why almost 300 boats crossing the Atlantic at the same precise time?

That is typical herd mentality. If so many boats are doing it, surely it it is easy and safe, even if I don't have a considerable experience and have a "crew" without any experience.;)

Regards

Paulo
 
#29 · (Edited)
I did just notice that NARC has put up on their main page an account of the 2011 fatality and rescues:

THIS IS THE REASON WHY WE ARE ONLY INVITING LARGER BOATS AND EXPERIENCED SAILORS

...
It seems these guys think that larger boats are safer:D.

"The Rally this year is restricted to Professionally crewed boats or boats that are big enough or fast enough to get to Bermuda in 4 to 4 1/2 days and crewed by experienced crew who have made the passage before. Smaller boats and less experienced sailors should spend September and October heading down to the Chesapeake and check out their boat and systems while they are still close to land. The are two rallies that depart from Hampton Roads Virginia Nov 4th."

Some here would strongly disagree:rolleyes:

Regards

Paulo
 
#30 ·
Perhaps it's time people were charged for this service. I can't even imagine what it costs the taxpayers to send a Hercules or two and a chopper out 275 miles or so because some folks are seasick and scared.
There have been a few times when I wanted to whistle for a taxi, and every time the wind was a lot closer to 100 knots than 25, but they just weren't available in those days, thankfully. We always got through it, no matter how bad it was. We learned that we'd be just fine if we did what we were supposed to do, IE: heave to, run a drogue or whatever the conditions required.
I'm guessing it's just too easy to give up and call for a free ride, these days.
 
#40 · (Edited)
Perhaps it's time people were charged for this service. I can't even imagine what it costs the taxpayers to send a Hercules or two and a chopper out 275 miles or so because some folks are seasick and scared.
....
I'm guessing it's just too easy to give up and call for a free ride, these days.
I have been saying and many disagreeing that this sort of situations is going to fall on the ones that take or/and are experienced. I bet that on these times of economic difficulties somebody is going to look at the numbers and costs and will stop with this nonsense. It is logical that the ones that benefice from SAR should the ones to pay for it, instead of the money coming from all tax payers.

That can be made trough mandatory insurance that obviously is going to be more expensive than the actual one. That would also auto regulate the boats that should or not go offshore and crew experience. I don't believe the premiums regarding SAR will be the same for all boats and some in what regards offshore would be simply not insurable. A certification that needs sailing experience will also lower premiums. They are not there to lose money.

Regards

Paulo
 
#33 ·
Exxon Valdez
Edmund Fitzgerald
Titanic
Poseidon
Mary Celeste
....and so on. :)

It's not so much the size of the boat, but the seamanship of the crew.

A 23-foot open boat, 19 men, 3,600 miles:

Bounty's Launch

He may have been "an overbearing, tin-plated dictator with delusions of god-hood" of an S.O.B. of a captain, but William Bligh was a consummate seaman, having trained and served under the greatest navigator of the age, James Cook.
 
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#42 · (Edited)
We are talking about safety and you come with this stuff:D

Do you really think that it is a question of seamanship and not luck for a 23ft open boat with 19 men to be able to do 3600NM? Sure, there are seamanship evolved but mostly a HUGE LUCK!!!

Assuming that seamanship make a 23ft open boat as safe as the Exxon Valdez, Edmund Fitzgerald, Titanic, Poseidon or Mary Celeste as not any sense and it is a dangerous thing to say or thought.

A movie to you about a silly boy with a dream. He was silly but persistent and surely he was a good sailor. See the movie, that is a nice one and you will see how lucky he was.

I hope that after that you don't think that what he had done was safe, just because he got away with it :D

 
#34 ·
How many people commenting on this thread have had command on a passage of five days or more without bailouts? Maybe it's more than I think.

As I understand it the only requirement for the Salty Dawg is that you've done a real offshore passage before.

I'm not sure there is better weather forecasting than Salty Dawg provides. It all still comes down to the skipper's responsibility.

We all know from experience that people--skipper and crew--get in over their heads. We all know that sometimes someone on the boat just wants to get off and sometimes that leads to calls for aid. Sometimes it leads to bad decision-making.

We can come up with rules for whether a boat is ready to go offshore. There are lots of existing rules that (mostly) make sense. Who makes the call if a crew is ready to go offshore? Boats outperform crews all the time.

What I see of weather offshore makes me surprised that a boat was dismasted and that a small handful of other boats want to pull the plug. Still, I'm not out there. I don't know what they are seeing, what they missed in prep, what surprises the crew faced.

It is one thing to learn from the experiences and mistakes of others. It is something entirely different to second guess the people on the scene. That way lies armchair sailing.

The Caribbean 1500 left Saturday. Salty Dawg recommended leaving Wednesday. My own analysis led to a recommendation to leave Monday pre-dawn. How things come out in one event isn't really statistically significant. There are two many variables and not enough measurables.

I'm not a rally person. I do think there is a false sense of security associated with rallies. If I sail in one it will be as a delivery skipper and I'll treat it like any other delivery, making my own decisions based on my own best judgment and the best data available to me. That said, I like the Salty Dawg concept and I personally think it is good for the cruising and offshore sailing community.
 
#35 ·
What's really interesting in the salty dawg and Carib 1500 is that they both left (more or less) the same time, and to be in the Carib you need NO offshore experience. I am not really sure the support is any greater than the salty......
 
#38 ·
What's likely to happen is that the USCG will start requiring permits for all these organized events with minimum safety requirements. It's too bad because more regulation will probably not change the fact that it seems too many folks do not appreciate what can happen and seem to be ignorant of some really basic stuff. You can understand someone getting caught by weather on a long passage but it's hard to fathom why people choose to set sail when waiting is obviously the best choice. Everyone wants to get going but it seems that too many can't resist the urge and throw the dice.
 
#41 ·
I don't see that happening as long as we don't have huge gates at all of the inlets to the ocean. There's nothing stopping folks form just picking up their anchor and sailing the route on their own. Requiring a permit to sail in a rally will just send rally's like this underground. I mean, you can't stop people from sailing in a group either. I just don't see how it would work.
 
#44 · (Edited)
I have to dis-agree with many of the posts here. I sailed with the Salty Dawg Rally last Fall of 2012 and I have to say it was very well run. They first off have Safety in mind. They work closely with numerous orgs to ensure participates are qualified, trained etc... They work VERY CLOSE with Chris Parker to ensure that conditions are right before leaving.

This year, I could not attend, but I have several friends in the Rally and again, they work with Chris Parker and team to ensure they are following the right course and weather is right. In this case, the forecast was right when they left and suddenly it changed overnight. That is not a reflection of the Rally organizers, but more of a reflection weather forecasting anomaly's...

We delayed for many days last year before leaving and everything was perfect to go. This year, they did the same thing with the same due diligence and the forecast was different.

If you more experienced posters on this site followed the Atlantic Weather overnight, it had a serious shift...
 
#69 ·
I've had the privilege to meet Donna Ferron a number of times. I can assure you that she is a lady, and certainly younger than I.

Back on subject ...

I have to dis-agree with many of the posts here. I sailed with the Salty Dawg Rally last Fall of 2012 and I have to say it was very well run. They first off have Safety in mind. They work closely with numerous orgs to ensure participates are qualified, trained etc... They work VERY CLOSE with Chris Parker to ensure that conditions are right before leaving.
That has been my experience. I'd point out that the 2012 Salty Dawg ran on the heels of Super Storm Sandy. I was supposed to speak at the pre-departure seminars but couldn't get down after Sandy. The Knowles and their supporters made the Salty Dawg work.

I don't think any reasonable person can find fault with the Salty Dawg. Personal responsibility is emphasized in every interaction with the rally.

A review of the NDBC records indicates no unusual or exceptional conditions that should have been of any particular concern/difficulty for any boat equipped to make the planned voyage.
Which goes to my earlier point. It isn't about the boat, it's about the crew. Frankly this is why I like the Yachtmaster credential over the USCG Master's license for recreational boats. The US Coast Guard gives you a test. The MCA takes you sailing.

Point taken. But, there's no guarantee that it will happen every time. I know it doesn't with me. No idea why (except for that morning after the Buffalo wings and alcohol, but that wasn't repeated.). But there are times in rough weather when I have no problems at all.
So far I've been sea sick once. It was a real surprise as I had never been sick before, absent one episode that was definitely the flu. When I was sea sick the conditions were not nearly as bad as the worst I have been through before. I managed to keep the crew fed throughout although it may well have not been my finest hour in the galley. I kept up nav and weather but when someone had to crawl onto the foredeck to address damage from boarding seas it was my good friend Adam Plourde who took care of things. I am and will always be grateful to Adam for his contribution.

Powering through sea sickness myself was based on the example set by Carlos Mendoza who sailed with me from Goteberg to Horta. Carlos got sick as Falmouth sank below the horizon. He couldn't keep anything down, including water. Ice chips kept him hydrated, mostly. I have pictures of Carlos flaked out on the sole. Nevertheless he never missed a watch. The ultimate solution to seasickness (sitting under a tree) was attained in Horta. Carlos lost over 20 lbs in 18 days (we still call it the "Carlos Mendoza adventure diet") but it still took a long discussion about dehydration and offshore rescue to get him on a plane. I figured if Carlos could do his part for two-and-a-half weeks of misery I could do a few days.

When we arrived in Bermuda Carlos was on the dock waiting for us and made the trip to Norfolk and on to Annapolis.

Two take-aways from my rambling: sea sicknesses can hit anyone and it is really bad, and I am truly blessed with good friends like Adam, Carlos, and Chip (whose exploits deserve their own thread, if not a book).
 
#47 ·
From Noonsite.

http://www.noonsite.com/Countries/USA/24th-arc-caribbean-1500-heads-offshore

"By Thursday evening, with the pre-departure social programme in full swing for ralliers, the organisers started creating a contingency plan for an early departure. The forecast indicated a tight weather window in which to get the fleet safely across the Gulf Stream in reasonable conditions and after consulting with Weather Routing Inc, a revised start time was proposed. An impromptu weather briefing was held at Ocean Marine Yacht Center to keep the fleet informed and by 0800 Saturday morning, the decision became official - the 2013 1500 start line would take place at 3:00pm off Hampton Flats.

It was unprecedented last year," said Miles Poor of Karina, the Tayana 55 who is a perennially entry in the 1500. "And for it to happen again, only a year later? Twice in 24 years? That's remarkable."

"The organizers were able to make a starting line for the Cruising Division thanks to marina residents at Ocean Marine who generously offered to use their Sea Ray 32 Cloud Nine as committee boat. The starting gun fired at 3:10pm local time and the fleet was off under clear skies and a light northerly wind. 18 yachts competed for the starting line of the competitive Cruising Division, with nearly a dozen other yachts following as part of the Open Division.

The true value of a professionally organised rally was demonstrated when several yachts listed as participating in the Salty Dawg Rally also left with the ARC Caribbean 1500 fleet, against their organizers decision to delay their own start until Wednesday or Thursday, when they are likely to experience light contrary winds."
 
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