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  #311  
Old 11-15-2013
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

over reliance on autohelms is such a common issue this is almost 100 percent likely what caused this damage, twice!

I know we all now the answers in hindsight but Ive seen it happen in real life in mild conditions...Ive snapped tillers and seen quadrants snap cables and or bust pins etc...

george said something abolsutely 100 percent true too

no autopilot, especially electric will ever foresee a wave or sequence of waves, rogue wave, etc...so its very very pausible that a stalled rudder, with autopilot hard over and slow to react will not move fast enough...back to center or more over...when THAT NEXT WAVE HITS!

in a sense that is why windvanes always win over autopilots on small to mid size boats(they loose efficiency at 60feet or so) because they can react ever so slightly more to conditions in the water because almost all have input by either a pendulum, trim tab or rudder...

I cant count how many times when sailing hard on a windvane that when a special wave hit from a certain angle I would have to help the windvane(aries) by helping it react faster...if I wouldnt of a nice broach would of happened...not catastrophic BUT could pop a vang or preventer easily, especially sailing in 20knot trades true...

cheers
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  #312  
Old 11-15-2013
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Agreed, George/Chris. On our trip, after the AP broke*, I noticed that the motion of the boat calmed down a good bit when we went to hand-steering. We could steer down the backside of the waves as opposed to slamming off of them like you see early in the video while on AP. It really seemed to help calm the seasickness in the boys.

So, at this point, I'm a fan of hand-steering in rough seas if possible (unless is lasts for days). If it gets too crazy for hand-steering and we need to be below - I would likely rather rely on a drogue than the AP (though I don't know this for sure yet, just my thinking at this point).

*I now understand more why the mount broke.
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Last edited by smackdaddy; 11-15-2013 at 08:15 PM.
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  #313  
Old 11-15-2013
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

I don't really see the connection of free v. paying $1,500 and the SAR missions. Now, I'd rather have a needle stuck in my eye than enter my boat in either SDR or C1500, but for some folks it works. In the end, we are individually responsible for both the condition our vessels and the decisions on departure.
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  #314  
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Quote:
Originally Posted by luv4sailin View Post
I don't really see the connection of free v. paying $1,500 and the SAR missions. Now, I'd rather have a needle stuck in my eye than enter my boat in either SDR or C1500, but for some folks it works. In the end, we are individually responsible for both the condition our vessels and the decisions on departure.
I've not put it out there that there is a connection (someone else posted that number). I don't know what the justification for that reported $1,500 entry fee for the Carib1500 is. Maybe someone else does.

Regardless - as least in my book - the entry fee has no bearing on whether the rally uses a safety standard like ISAF. Separate issues.

My point on this that you might be talking about is that the rally that does not use the ISAF standard, and has a relatively low bar for entry, and leaves all that to the skippers, is the one that had a lot of problems on this run.
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  #315  
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Chris /George explain this to me.the single handed round the world racers now all use autopilots in stuff that makes this sdr look like a day sail on a calm lake. These boats are 60' and under.
I thought once you get really moving wind vanes just don't work. So they all switched a decade ago. Had a Fleming on a prior boat and have sailed with a monitor and a hydro vane in the past. Now have the long linear arm raymarine . Have used the ray in 30+ without troubles. Boats 32000 fully laden ? I'm I pushing it and just lucky so far. Is this more function of rudder construction then mode of steering? Are you better on course or wind function ?
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Last edited by outbound; 11-15-2013 at 09:31 PM.
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  #316  
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Quote:
Originally Posted by christian.hess View Post
I didnt read the whole report...BUT I read the first paragraph regarding again AUTOPILOTS

it is possible you know to break a tiller or wheel or any part of of the steering system by IMPROPER use of an autopilot

we once cracked the tilller easily by simply not paying attention to what our basic little tiller pilot was telling us

if it was beeping it can be a number of errors, sever weather helm or being overpowered is one of them
again JUST SAYIN
Sometimes, the choice just comes down to heaving-to, fore-reaching, streaming a drogue, or simply steering the damn boat...

My friend Glenn at the helm of a Trintella 50, in the Stream about 60 miles E of Hatteras in early December, NW breeze @ 25-35, the Raymarine autopilot did OK for about 90% of the time... It's what might happen that remaining 10% of the time, is the reason for steering 100% of the time...

If you can't accept that tradeoff, stick to the ICW :-)


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  #317  
Old 11-15-2013
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
Agreed, George/Chris. On our trip, after the AP broke*, I noticed that the motion of the boat calmed down a good bit when we went to hand-steering. We could steer down the backside of the waves as opposed to slamming off of them like you see early in the video while on AP. It really seemed to help calm the seasickness in the boys.

So, at this point, I'm a fan of hand-steering in rough seas if possible (unless is lasts for days). If it gets too crazy for hand-steering and we need to be below - I would likely rather rely on a drogue than the AP (though I don't know this for sure yet, just my thinking at this point).

*I now understand more why the mount broke.
Put learning how to heave too at the top of your list. Long before a drogue or before you get exhausted...heaving too so basic, yet ignored by most. don't see where this technique is ever discussed in all the ISAF stuff you cite. Think it would have prevented most of the issues in the SDR.
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  #318  
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Quote:
Originally Posted by outbound View Post
Chris /George explain this to me.the single handed round the world racers now all use autopilots in stuff that makes this sdr look like a day sail on a calm lake. These boats are 60' and under.
Virtually all the RTW guys are using very sophisticated NKE systems, that bear very little resemblance to the APs most recreational sailors rely on...

NKE Autopilot Packages
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  #319  
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Quote:
Originally Posted by aeventyr60 View Post
Put learning how to heave too at the top of your list. Long before a drogue or before you get exhausted...heaving too so basic, yet ignored by most. don't see where this technique is ever discussed in all the ISAF stuff you cite. Think it would have prevented most of the issues in the SDR.
amen brother!

cant understand why so many people say my boat is fin and spade so it wont heave to...utter bullcrap...any boat will heave to with combinations of helm in the middle, or full over, main in middle to leward or whatver, or any combo of backed jib, foresail etc...the fact is people dont test what works for their boat 95% of the time...

(I clearly remember doing this in the middle of san francisco bay with my crew before setting sail on my first ever cruise on my boat...the thing was my boat was a piece of cake to heave to...so we had lunch and set off for sausalito before heading out the gate...end of story)

...so they buy a drogue at westmarine and say this will work



btw drogues are for big passages, heavy trade sailing or high latitudes often used when bare poles is no longer effective...

drogues can be disastrous when you cant un deploy them and many simply cut them away
Id much prefer a very strong and supported trisail or storm sail setup paired with bernard motissiers aft quarter to the breaking waves combo...

again trade sailing not stormy bash to weather scenarios

i should also mention that in rallies MANY cruisersare very reluctant to change course to save their boat or make the passage safer...this was a huge issue i had with my crew on my first cruise...one must always have safety first, even if that means losing valuable cmg...

Last edited by christian.hess; 11-15-2013 at 11:05 PM.
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  #320  
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
Virtually all the RTW guys are using very sophisticated NKE systems, that bear very little resemblance to the APs most recreational sailors rely on...

NKE Autopilot Packages
exactly, cant compare 25 knot surfing open 60´s rounding capehorn autopilots to st4000´s and such

btw they do 15-30 minutes max at helm(crewmembers on those type of races) and switch as the amount of physical and mental power it takes to helm at such a level completely exhausts them in such short order...they use autohelm for certain jobs and situations...slow sailing before reaching port etc...

couple of youtube vids will show you this...no comparison whatsoever to any production or fast cruiser...
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