Rallies Gone Wrong - Page 33 - SailNet Community

   Search Sailnet:

 forums  store  


Quick Menu
Forums           
Articles          
Galleries        
Boat Reviews  
Classifieds     
Search SailNet 
Boat Search (new)

Shop the
SailNet Store
Anchor Locker
Boatbuilding & Repair
Charts
Clothing
Electrical
Electronics
Engine
Hatches and Portlights
Interior And Galley
Maintenance
Marine Electronics
Navigation
Other Items
Plumbing and Pumps
Rigging
Safety
Sailing Hardware
Trailer & Watersports
Clearance Items

Advertise Here






Go Back   SailNet Community > Out There > Vessels Lost, Missing, or in Danger
 Not a Member? 


Like Tree390Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #321  
Old 11-16-2013
smackdaddy's Avatar
Last Man Standing
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 13,548
Thanks: 98
Thanked 98 Times in 92 Posts
Rep Power: 9
smackdaddy is a jewel in the rough smackdaddy is a jewel in the rough smackdaddy is a jewel in the rough
Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Quote:
Originally Posted by aeventyr60 View Post
Put learning how to heave too at the top of your list. Long before a drogue or before you get exhausted...heaving too so basic, yet ignored by most. don't see where this technique is ever discussed in all the ISAF stuff you cite. Think it would have prevented most of the issues in the SDR.
I hear you aev. I'm a big fan of heaving-to. Though I've never done it in big stuff, we use it a lot.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

S/V Dawn Treader - 1989 Hunter Legend 40
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #322  
Old 11-16-2013
PCP's Avatar
PCP PCP is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal, West Coast
Posts: 16,193
Thanks: 21
Thanked 100 Times in 83 Posts
Rep Power: 11
PCP will become famous soon enough
Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Quote:
Originally Posted by christian.hess View Post
...

no autopilot, especially electric will ever foresee a wave or sequence of waves, rogue wave, etc...so its very very pausible that a stalled rudder, with autopilot hard over and slow to react will not move fast enough...back to center or more over...when THAT NEXT WAVE HITS!

in a sense that is why windvanes always win over autopilots on small to mid size boats(they loose efficiency at 60feet or so) because they can react ever so slightly more to conditions in the water because almost all have input by either a pendulum, trim tab or rudder...

....
That makes no sense at all and certainly it is not true, I mean regarding a windvane to be more efficient than an electronic auto-pilot.

Regards

Paulo
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #323  
Old 11-16-2013
PCP's Avatar
PCP PCP is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal, West Coast
Posts: 16,193
Thanks: 21
Thanked 100 Times in 83 Posts
Rep Power: 11
PCP will become famous soon enough
Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
Virtually all the RTW guys are using very sophisticated NKE systems, that bear very little resemblance to the APs most recreational sailors rely on...

NKE Autopilot Packages
Autopilots have suffered in the last 10 years an huge evolution due to what was learned on solo races. You can pretty much mount in your cruising boat what they use on the 40class racers (NKE). It is more expensive but it is well spent money. Eric had done so on his new boat and Steve also and while Eric has a performance boat Steve has a voyage boat.

Anyway even if we talk about mainstream market in what regards autopilots a 10 year old autopilot is hugely less efficient than one from the same brand now. Between my boat and the previous one there is a 5 year difference on the electronics and where I can feel the bigger difference is on autopilot performance.

The ones that have old autopilots should consider the investment in a new one if they sail a lot solo. The improvement is very neat.

Regards

Paulo
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #324  
Old 11-16-2013
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: new england
Posts: 1,875
Thanks: 34
Thanked 35 Times in 32 Posts
Rep Power: 3
outbound is on a distinguished road
Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

This thread has set me back on my heels thinking I've been unsafe. Just this last summer have spent 2+ d on autopilot in 30+ with frequent surfing in low teens on far reach as well as several occasions in t storms/ line squalls in 20 s with gust to 40 s bearing off to 60 degrees to improve ride. We do this on AUTPILOT as usually have only one on watch. Do keep with in hands reach of the standby button. .? Are we in a fools paradise just waiting for disaster.
__________________
s/v Hippocampus
Outbound 46
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #325  
Old 11-16-2013
smackdaddy's Avatar
Last Man Standing
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 13,548
Thanks: 98
Thanked 98 Times in 92 Posts
Rep Power: 9
smackdaddy is a jewel in the rough smackdaddy is a jewel in the rough smackdaddy is a jewel in the rough
Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Quote:
Originally Posted by outbound View Post
Are we in a fools paradise just waiting for disaster.
Hey, it's sailing! Aren't we all? Heh-heh.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

S/V Dawn Treader - 1989 Hunter Legend 40
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #326  
Old 11-16-2013
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Miami
Posts: 118
Thanks: 0
Thanked 4 Times in 4 Posts
Rep Power: 9
luv4sailin is on a distinguished road
Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

If were starting again, I'd likely use the NKE unit assuming $ were no object, but I must say my Alpha 3000 has seen me through thousands of single handed miles in thick and thin and never missed a beat. It is fast, fast, fast and draws very little juice. I wish it had a degree to wind capability, but it does not. It only sails a compass course. I have many open ocean miles with a Raymarine 6000+ on a friends boat, and the Alpha 3000, in my judgement, is a much better unit. (I have no connection to Alpha Marine, just am very happy with the product.)
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #327  
Old 11-16-2013
PCP's Avatar
PCP PCP is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal, West Coast
Posts: 16,193
Thanks: 21
Thanked 100 Times in 83 Posts
Rep Power: 11
PCP will become famous soon enough
Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Quote:
Originally Posted by outbound View Post
This thread has set me back on my heels thinking I've been unsafe. Just this last summer have spent 2+ d on autopilot in 30+ with frequent surfing in low teens on far reach as well as several occasions in t storms/ line squalls in 20 s with gust to 40 s bearing off to 60 degrees to improve ride. We do this on AUTPILOT as usually have only one on watch. Do keep with in hands reach of the standby button. .? Are we in a fools paradise just waiting for disaster.
What have you as autopilot?

I have not yet found any conditions my autopilot could not take. The difference is that in some conditions I can sail the boat with a lot more sail (and speed) that the one that the autopilot can handle and sometimes I have to go on a slightly different course, specially downwind (when sailing at higher angles, closer to 180ļ).

Regards

Paulo
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #328  
Old 11-16-2013
smackdaddy's Avatar
Last Man Standing
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 13,548
Thanks: 98
Thanked 98 Times in 92 Posts
Rep Power: 9
smackdaddy is a jewel in the rough smackdaddy is a jewel in the rough smackdaddy is a jewel in the rough
Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
Nah, c'mon George...

Surely, an ISAF pre-race inspection would have foretold the likely delamination of the bulkheads on a Morgan OI 41, the rig failure on a Hans Christian 38, and the rudder failure on that Catalina 42.... :-)
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
Paulo, we're talking about setting out from a point north of Cape Hatteras, in November... 25 knots of breeze is about the MINIMUM of what one can reasonably expect to encounter at some point on that passage, and if 30 knots is the most you ever see on that run, you're been very fortunate, indeed... Many of the best weather windows for that trip will often include such weather early on, and any sailor who expects they will somehow manage to avoid such conditions during the course of that voyage is delusional :-)

Not to mention, anyone not prepared to encounter considerably more on this trip has no business making it to begin with...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
Well, you choose to dismiss the fact that the 1500 and most of the Salty Dawgs sailed in entirely different weather systems from the outset, but carry on :-)

So, what does ISAF have to say about departure dates, weather windows for this particular passage, or the choice of weather routers? For, IMHO, that was the distinguishing feature that applies to any comparison, here...

Andy Schell claims the 1500 never would have left when most of the SD fleet did, but that's pretty easy to say, in hindsight... I've seen firshand how ill-prepared a rally like the 1500 is, to deal with a weather postponement of more than a week... Make no mistake, they made the right call leaving when they did, I've stated that from the outset. Perhaps Chris Parker missed this one, but he's still the best in the business, and to place blame on the weather routing this year, is just as unseemly as the attempts by some last year to lay the blame for the NARC debacle on Herb Hilgenberg...

Sometimes, the SHTF on this passage, there's not much anyone can do about it, it's really that simple :-)
Jon, I really don't get your arguments here. I've been reading your posts for a long time. And you're not one to go easy on sailors who go out "underprepared", then run into problems. In fact, you're typically pretty harsh.

Yet, when it comes to this rally incident where 8 out of 116 boats had serious gear failures and/or became SAR cases, you're willing to give a pass to the organization that encouraged/facilitated this group of boats to be out there in the very conditions you cite above.

So, on the one hand, you're saying that the organization's low-experience threshold for entry and low standard of safety preparedness for the rally is perfectly fine. Yet, on the other hand, you're saying that no sailor should undertake a trip like this unless they have a high level of experience and a high level of safety preparedness.

Can't you see the conflict in this line of reasoning? You can't have it both ways. Would you, on a sailing forum, personally encourage a cruiser with a single bluewater passage to do this trip at this time of year - not knowing anything more about him or the condition of his boat? I seriously doubt it.

And if things went bad for him on this trip and he had to call for rescue, would you then come back on the forum and say "Sometimes, the SHTF on this passage, there's not much anyone can do about it, it's really that simple :-)". Again, I seriously doubt it.

When you and others hold individual skippers to such a high standard and continually critique their perceived flaws (Snowbirds don't sail they motor, judging by this pic they're not prepared, they should have never been out there in the first place, they call this safe?, they rely on electronics too much, etc.) - then you should hold everyone, including rally organizations, to that same standard. If you don't, then you're allowing the rally organization to essentially say this "seamanship stuff" is not really that important as they undercut it. Do you really believe it is not that important?

The only way I can reconcile so much resistance to this notion of rally organizers having ISAF (or equivalent) as the safety standard, or at least upping the entry requirements to ensure adequate experience - is that you guys, as experienced skippers, just can't stand the thought of ANY form of outside regulation (though you personally hold the skipper to very high "regulations" yourself). I guess I understand that from a political perspective. But it sure does twist your logic.


http://www.sail-world.com/USA/Salty-...m-havoc/116550

Quote:
In any rally there is no doubt that each skipper is required to make his or her own call as to their departure and all other decisions during a rally.

However, some of the stories coming back from the US Coast Guard accounts and even from the sailors themselves makes one wonder whether some sailors were less than well prepared for the conditions, with several sounding a distress and then withdrawing their call.

Two of the survivors, Bruce Grieshaber and Becky Meinking, who had sold all their worldly possessions to purchase a boat and sail away to the Caribbean, told media outlets that they had 'they trained extensively with the Salty Dawg Rally organizers before setting sail', implying that they were inexperienced sailors and hence ill-prepared for such a first journey.

They, with two other crew, were aboard the 41ft sailboat, Ahimsa. They sent out a distress signal via a satellite tracking device, stating they were taking on water 230 miles east of Virginia Beach and were in need of assistance. At approximately 0130, all four crewmembers were rescued by a Jayhawk helicopter and taken to Air Station Elizabeth City.

The skipper Grieshaber later told Wavy.com how the boat was 'taking on too much water' and seemed to have a 'structural problem', caused by the waves. They radioed the rally network and then called the Coast Guard for help.

They were seasick. They were tired.
PCP likes this.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

S/V Dawn Treader - 1989 Hunter Legend 40

Last edited by smackdaddy; 11-16-2013 at 07:55 PM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #329  
Old 11-16-2013
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: new england
Posts: 1,875
Thanks: 34
Thanked 35 Times in 32 Posts
Rep Power: 3
outbound is on a distinguished road
Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Paulo last years raymarine long arm.it's just before the new control head update
__________________
s/v Hippocampus
Outbound 46
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #330  
Old 11-16-2013
christian.hess's Avatar
"Nubile Southern Sailor"
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Columbus, Ga
Posts: 4,394
Thanks: 174
Thanked 174 Times in 170 Posts
Rep Power: 2
christian.hess is on a distinguished road
Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
That makes no sense at all and certainly it is not true, I mean regarding a windvane to be more efficient than an electronic auto-pilot.

Regards

Paulo
what?

what electric autopilot has input from the water?

notice I mentioned on small to medium sized boats...and not in a racing application

succesful windvanes like the monitor are maxed out for boats around 60feet...

an electric autopilot will be more efficient for certain applications...but Im not just talking about straight line sailing...either...efficiency can be having a windvane that sails a circumnav without more than simple lubing the gears and stuff...just sayin

in the end people are stubborn, want to beleive what ever they want and never try to see another point of view...

Im only posting my own personal experience...nobody has to agree with me, its not my point or agenda

good day
chall03 likes this.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

By choosing to post the reply above you agree to the rules you agreed to when joining Sailnet.
Click Here to view those rules.

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the SailNet Community forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
Please note: After entering 3 characters a list of Usernames already in use will appear and the list will disappear once a valid Username is entered.
User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

 
Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may post attachments
You may edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Sailing fraternity rallies for gutted Carrickfergus club NewsReader News Feeds 0 06-25-2012 10:20 AM
Smooth sailing for Fish, Sharapova rallies NewsReader News Feeds 0 08-30-2011 11:10 PM
Smooth sailing for Fish, Sharapova rallies NewsReader News Feeds 0 08-30-2011 11:10 AM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 04:22 PM.

Add to My Yahoo!         
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.1
(c) Marine.com LLC 2000-2012

The SailNet.com store is owned and operated by a company independent of the SailNet.com forum. You are now leaving the SailNet forum. Click OK to continue or Cancel to return to the SailNet forum.