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  #351  
Old 11-17-2013
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Quote:
Originally Posted by aeventyr60 View Post
Can't agree with you Paulo. Too many of your Euro buddies have windvanes on modern boats here in SE Asia. Are you sure your looking at long distance cruising boats where you are? Seems most of what your seeing are local boats. Anchored around me are several modern, fin keel production boats with windvanes...all sporting European flags. maybe you need to get a little further from home?
Perhaps we need to start distinguishing between "Cruisers', and 'Rallyists'... :-)

Of the 233 boats in the 2010 ARC Rally, only 32 were sporting windvanes...

http://windpilot.com/wordpress/wp-co...urvey-pt-1.pdf
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  #352  
Old 11-17-2013
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
Perhaps we need to start distinguishing between "Cruisers', and 'Rallyists'... :-)

Of the 233 boats in the 2010 ARC Rally, only 32 were sporting windvanes...

http://windpilot.com/wordpress/wp-co...urvey-pt-1.pdf
Funny thing, those boats with windvanes don't have oxygen tents either. Seems they have also been out for several years, have made several major ocean passages and are not rally folks. All are at anchor too.....guess I'd have to dinghy over to a marina to see all the AP only folks. Funny how that works.
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  #353  
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

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Originally Posted by aeventyr60 View Post
Funny thing, those boats with windvanes don't have oxygen tents either. Seems they have also been out for several years, have made several major ocean passages and are not rally folks. All are at anchor too.....guess I'd have to dinghy over to a marina to see all the AP only folks. Funny how that works.
Wish I could find it, but a year or two ago I read a blog account from someone prepping their Atlantic crossing from Las Palmas at the same time as the ARC...

They described a cluster of 'Independents' anchored outside of the harbor, and one of the distinguishing features from them and all the Rally boats moored in the marina, was how many of them were equipped with vanes, and how few of the ARC boats had them...
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  #354  
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
Perhaps we need to start distinguishing between "Cruisers', and 'Rallyists'... :-)

Of the 233 boats in the 2010 ARC Rally, only 32 were sporting windvanes...

http://windpilot.com/wordpress/wp-co...urvey-pt-1.pdf
Funny, I take another conclusion: old boats use windvanes, new boats use auto pilot. As on the ARC most boats have less than 12 years the vast majority don't use wind vane.

Do you really believe that on the ARC there are a relation between the use of windvane and the experience of the sailors in what regards sailing? I bet that there are a direct relation with the age of the boat

Regards

Paulo
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  #355  
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
Wish I could find it, but a year or two ago I read a blog account from someone prepping their Atlantic crossing from Las Palmas at the same time as the ARC...

They described a cluster of 'Independents' anchored outside of the harbor, and one of the distinguishing features from them and all the Rally boats moored in the marina, was how many of them were equipped with vanes, and how few of the ARC boats had them...
In fact that is quite logically, the ARC is a pretty expensive rally and it seems to me that the main reason that they are independents is because they don't have the money to go on the rally since they are sailing at the same time to take the advantages the rally provide in safety.

Not having money is related with old boat and old boat related with windvane

Regards

Paulo
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

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Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Funny, I take another conclusion: old boats use windvanes, new boats use auto pilot. As on the ARC most boats have less than 12 years the vast majority don't use wind vane.

Do you really believe that on the ARC there are a relation between the use of windvane and the experience of the sailors in what regards sailing? I bet that there are a direct relation with the age of the boat

Regards

Paulo
No, I'm not suggesting that there is any necessary correlation between a sailor's 'experience', and the choice of a windvane... Certainly, with so many newer, larger boats in an event like the ARC, it's no surprise that the popularity of vanes is on the decline...

However, one other tidbit from the survey I cited is worth noting... Almost half of that ARC fleet had on board diesel generators... Average run time of those with generators was almost 4 hours per 24 hour period...

Another 99 boats used their main engines for battery charging, averaging between 2 and 3 hours of running per day...

Different strokes, for different folks... :-)
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

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Originally Posted by PCP View Post
In fact that is quite logically, the ARC is a pretty expensive rally and it seems to me that the main reason that they are independents is because they don't have the money to go on the rally since they are sailing at the same time to take the advantages the rally provide in safety.

Not having money is related with old boat and old boat related with windvane

Regards

Paulo
Actually, they were not doing that at all...

If my recollection is correct, some were planning to head for the Cape Verdes first, and some others were going to make an effort to wait until after the ARC fleet left, so as not to be sailing amongst such a large group of boats...

Similarly, I just happened to leave Hampton on the same day as the Caribbean 1500 2 years ago, but it certainly wasn't to avail myself of the 'safety' of sailing in company... In fact, we were very relieved to see them all head towards Hatteras, while we initially headed almost due east from the Bay Entrance, thus separating ourselves from the herd as quickly as possible :-)
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  #358  
Old 11-18-2013
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
No, I'm not suggesting that there is any necessary correlation between a sailor's 'experience', and the choice of a windvane... Certainly, with so many newer, larger boats in an event like the ARC, it's no surprise that the popularity of vanes is on the decline...

However, one other tidbit from the survey I cited is worth noting... Almost half of that ARC fleet had on board diesel generators... Average run time of those with generators was almost 4 hours per 24 hour period...

Another 99 boats used their main engines for battery charging, averaging between 2 and 3 hours of running per day...

Different strokes, for different folks... :-)
Yes, different strokes for different folk I agree but that does not mean that those 32 boats using windvane are not also using a generator or are not using the batteries to charge their systems.

Fact is that the consumption of an electric autopilot is very small when compared to running a refrigerator not to mention a fridge and even smaller if compared with a A.C. system. Most people that voyage today like to do it with comfort, with a big freezer with frozen food and staying out of the cold and rain (or the hot blazing sun) in a comfortable interior with controlled temperature.

That is one of the reasons most modern voyage boats are bigger to be able to be able to provide all this type of comforts.

I am pretty sure that you know that for running a modern autopilot 24 hours a day you don't need a generator or running the engine 4 hours a day. In fact all that voyage and use them can say to you you only need to have an auxiliary source of energy like a wind electric generator, solar panels or just one of the modern hydro generators that is the best solution and the one that is used on circumnavigation race boats.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
....
Make no mistake, I would never be without an autopilot, and if I could only have one option, it would be an AP... But for the sort of sailing I do, much of it singlehanded, I'd never want to do an extended passage without a vane... Especially as winds and seas increase, my Sailomat only becomes more powerful and responsive, while my tillerpilot becomes less effective...
...
I agree with you than on an extended passage someone should have a back up in case you have a malfunction on a autopilot even if many circumnavigate with an autopilot without any problem.

But instead of having mounted an autopilot plus a windvane, (that is very expensive, takes a lot of useful space and it is much less efficient in what regard the ability to drive the boat in all conditions) it is much more logical and better to have a set of spars for the autopilot: an electrical engine, the electronic components and fuses would be far less expensive than a windvane. That is what those that voyage extensively in modern boats do.

Older voyage boats have already installed for many years a windvane and probably their autopilot is also an old less effective one so it makes sense that they keep both systems even if at the cost of a lesser performance in what regards to leave the boat on autopilot or windvane, if compared with a modern system.

Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 11-18-2013 at 07:02 AM.
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  #359  
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

For comparison, most popular autopilots use approx. 50-70 amps/24 hours. My Isotherm SP refrig. unit uses approx. 17 amps in 24 hours. With 200 w. of solar input, a maximum of approx. 1600 watts in an 8hr day(if the sun shines), or 130 amps/day, an autopilot would be considerably outside the overall energy budget. Without some other form of electric production, an autopilot would be impossible. I suspect that is why you see so many other power producing gadgets on sailboats. I can't understand why most cruising boats have not been designed with a molded-in turbine of some sort so that water power could be available for a multitude of uses.
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Have done the budget and so far in actual practice seems to work out. Get by with two panels and two wind generators. Have nothing but leds for lighting. So can run frig/freezer, electronics, lights, pressure water and AP. Can't run entertainment systems and definitely not AC. Keep folks on energy aware budget just like fresh water. Use radar only when necessary. Think having the biggest battery bank you can stick in helps. Some days the sun shines and some days the wind blows. Sticking in a small 4k generator but more for being able to make water and run AC when on the hook. Think the average cruiser can get by when sailing on the AP without using a generator with just a little forethought.
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