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  #511  
Old 12-18-2013
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Quote:
Originally Posted by blowinstink View Post
And there are many who are certain they do know enough who don't or won't. And there always will be -- it is part an parcel of the whole experience. Its called life.




So now you want to take Smack's notion of regulating the rally participants (I suppose the Coast Guard would be charged with enforcing that . . .) and extend it to regulating all offshore sailing. Lovely. I am glad that the only people talking about doing so have all been herded to this little irrelevant corner of the internet.

What I find truly bizarre is that so many of you of this opinion (granted not all) are socially conservative and not only tout your own individual responsibility and the like, but you are also vehemently opposed to groups of people organizing themselves for their common good in social ventures such as healthcare or environmental regulation that impact the entire community.

And yet here, where the impact is truly limited to the people who make the choice (informed or uninformed) to venture offshore, you all of a sudden have no problem with intrusive regulation. I struggle to understand that contradiction. The societal justification fails. Is it personal? Is it simply a desire for some sort of validation of your status (you are prepared? others are stupid?). Of course then the ocean will have its say as well.

Why the forums always focus on why someone else is right or wrong and not on teaching / learning / sharing experiences . . . I will never know.
Dude, it's not nearly that complex or political.

Look, if some organization is going to make a buck off facilitating a bunch of sailors taking their boats into harm's way - they have a responsibility to that group. The organization can't reap benefits while eschewing responsibility. Period.

I don't give a damn about what everyone else does.
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  #512  
Old 12-18-2013
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

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Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Big deal Chall:
I do believe a skipper being responsibly for his vessel is.


Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Big deal Chall The problem is that are many that don't know that they don't know enough to skipper a boat offshore...and they go offshore anyway carrying others with them. Some don't even know what kind of safety and security equipment they should have and use in case of an emergency.
Agreed. The problem I have is that you seem to believe that you can regulate and mandate these people to safety.

I believe that the best thing you can do is to impress to these folk that they are responsible for their vessel and crew, and what this means in terms of sailing a small yacht into the ocean. If they get that, then no one needs to make them have a seaworthy yacht.

I sail offshore with my wife and young daughter, I need very little convincing to inspect my rig, or carry adequate safeties.

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Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Can rules and regulations prevent to go offshore at least some of those that don't have a clue and prevent them to put themselves and others in danger?
Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Can rules an regulations prevent inadequate boats or boats in bad condition to be sailed offshore preventing all the implied risks for the crew?
No and No IMHO. I believe and have seen here locally examples of how that can actually encourage a 'textbook' safety approach at the expense of real world, genuine seamanship.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
You seem to resent that safety rules and regulations to be applied to all, even to those that don't need them because they know what they are doing. They are not there for those but for the majority of less experienced sailors and as there is no way to tell them apart, all have to comply.

Anyway those rules and required safety equipment doesn't came out of thin air and result from the counsel of the most experienced sailors. Anyway any experienced sailor will have that security material on his boat, so what's the problem in it being mandatory by law?
I do actually resent people making decisions that I need to make myself.

In your world a room full of experienced sailors sit around the ISAF table, decide what is best for all of us( cause they are the experienced sailors) and we all just do it cause it is mandatory. It is not model I believe leads to genuine impovements in offshore safety.

I am subject to ISAF safety regs, and am fully compliant. I find it took me quite a bit of time to actually understand it all to a level I was happy with and how it all applies to vessel. IMHO it would be too easy to just buy everything on the list and not understand it all, and yet be fully compliant.
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  #513  
Old 12-18-2013
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

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Originally Posted by chall03 View Post
I believe that the best thing you can do is to impress to these folk that they are responsible for their vessel and crew, and what this means in terms of sailing a small yacht into the ocean. If they get that, then no one needs to make them have a seaworthy yacht.
100% agreement from me.

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Originally Posted by chall03 View Post
I do actually resent people making decisions that I need to make myself.

In your world a room full of experienced sailors sit around the ISAF table, decide what is best for all of us( cause they are the experienced sailors) and we all just do it cause it is mandatory. It is not model I believe leads to genuine impovements in offshore safety.

I am subject to ISAF safety regs, and am fully compliant. I find it took me quite a bit of time to actually understand it all to a level I was happy with and how it all applies to vessel. IMHO it would be too easy to just buy everything on the list and not understand it all, and yet be fully compliant.
Spot on.. I wasn't going to wade in, but I'll take it a step further:

To make their job even half do-able, that "room-full of experienced sailors sitting around the ISAF table" have to assume that every single yacht sailing the world's oceans can safely comply with the regulations they make.

Problem is, as good as the regulations might be (subject to change, of course), there are a goodly number of old classic yachts out there that have been racing on the world's oceans longer than ISAF has existed and for which 100% compliance to the exact 'letter of the law' becomes a battle indeed - in some cases making the grey areas around some rules a feat of navigation in itself and in others close to ruling out an entire fleet altogether at the whim of an inexperienced local ISAF compliance officer.

Let's just say I do not think any of them have an easy job.
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Last edited by Classic30; 12-18-2013 at 05:07 PM.
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  #514  
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

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Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
Dude, it's not nearly that complex or political.

Look, if some organization is going to make a buck off facilitating a bunch of sailors taking their boats into harm's way - they have a responsibility to that group. The organization can't reap benefits while eschewing responsibility. Period.
Well, then, just to play devil's advocate, here... :-)

No "organization" has made more bucks, or done more to "facilitate a bunch of sailors taking their boats into harm's way", than the manufacturer who built the boat to begin with, and the dealer, broker or previous owner who sold it, or the underwriter insuring it...

Where, then, does their responsibility end?

This slope gets awfully slippery, awfully quickly, doesn't it?

btw, "into harm's way???" Hell, I thought it was supposed to be perfectly safe out there, 99% of the time?

:-)

Last edited by JonEisberg; 12-18-2013 at 05:43 PM.
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

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Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg
Hmmm, well... let's see...

How about Ordinary production boats festooned with a ton of Crap-on-de-Back should be prohibited from venturing offshore?
So after all you think that some mandatory rules can help

Regards

Paulo
Paulo, I'm sure you realize my tongue was planted firmly in cheek on that one :-)

Hell, I sail a 40+ year old production boat myself, after all :-)

I've always argued, there's a simple solution to this problem of folks 'sailing beyond their level of experience...' Shut down GPS, or at least render it unavailable to ordinary citizens...

However, I'm gonna guess, that such a 'solution' is probably a non-starter, for most...

Myself, included... :-)
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  #516  
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
Well, then, just to play devil's advocate, here... :-)

No "organization" has made more bucks, or done more to "facilitate a bunch of sailors taking their boats into harm's way", than the manufacturer who built the boat to begin with, and the dealer, broker or previous owner who sold it, or the underwriter insuring it...

Where, then, does their responsibility end?

This slope gets awfully slippery, awfully quickly, doesn't it?

btw, "into harm's way???" Hell, I thought it was supposed to be perfectly safe out there, 99% of the time?

:-)
No, your slope ain't slippery. None of those things you list even remotely relate to what we're talking about...that is, the responsible use of the thing. If you're really the type of person who holds the manufacturer, dealer, broker, previous owner, and/or your insurer responsible for how you use your boat, you might be a lawyer's dream, but you're seriously doing it wrong.

As we've already agreed, this particular run in November has much higher risks than at other times. This means you are intentionally getting much closer to that 1% - precisely as has been shown (by you) to be the case in recent years.

But, unlike your weird scenario above, if a less-experienced sailor is "enticed" into this higher risk by an organization that's making money off that enticement, there's a problem. This is affecting how the skipper is using the boat.

Jon, look, despite the pretzel logic you seem to like to get yourself into, you've already stated your position quite well...and it underscores why you can't see things clearly in this debate and keep chasing your tail. It's this:

"There is no substitute for Experience..."

You have it - at a level that seems to make you, and Ausp, feel very comfortable...some might say smug.

But you guys seem to have forgotten that many other sailors don't and that the only way to get it is to get out there and do it. Yet the only way to do that responsibly is to prepare yourself and your boat to be as safe as possible. AND, since this less-experienced sailor lacks the experience to know exactly how to do this on his/her own, he/she should definitely turn to the resources of more experienced sailors (be that crewing, ISAF, SAS, well-run rallies, races, whatever).

See, you're only half-right in your pronouncement. There IS actually a substitute for experience...it's courage-mixed-with-caution. Because the only way to gain the experience is to do it. I'm just a very strong advocate of doing it safely.
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Last edited by smackdaddy; 12-18-2013 at 07:41 PM.
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  #517  
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

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Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
No, your slope ain't slippery. None of those things you list even remotely relate to what we're talking about...that is, the responsible use of the thing. If you're really the type of person who holds the manufacturer, dealer, broker, previous owner, and/or your insurer responsible for how you use your boat, you might be a lawyer's dream, but you're seriously doing it wrong.
Nah, I can assure you, I am most definitely not "that type of person"...

On the other hand, it sounds like you might be - with your insistence that the organizers of the SDR bear some measure of responsibility for the difficulties some of their boats encountered :-)

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
But, unlike your weird scenario above, if a less-experienced sailor is "enticed" into this higher risk by an organization that's making money off that enticement, there's a problem. This is affecting how the skipper is using the boat.
"Enticed"??? You mean, like the obviously profitable Caribbean 1500 has been doing for over 20 years, with a substantial advertising budget, offering such promises as:

Quote:
By joining the 1500, you can rest assured that the ‘experts’ are there to take the pressure off of that decision. Our support team consists of professional ocean sailors working closely with our weather forecasters at WRI to ensure the fleet makes it across the Gulf Stream and into warmer waters in the best possible conditions.
Or, "enticed" by the grassroots, non-profit upstart SDR, formed as an alternative to the 1500, that offers no such "enticement" beyond "opening the door to new friends and experiences while cruising various areas in the Caribbean", while making it perfectly clear that "it is the responsibility of each skipper to have proper safety equipment and to ensure that the vessel is prepared for the passage", and " It is each skipper’s responsibility to decide the course and whether or not to set out for the passage."...

I don't know, the former sounds a lot more "enticing", to me... :-)

Seriously, if you can show how your ISAF inspection would have made a difference in the outcome of this year's SDR, then you might have a case...

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
Jon, look, despite the pretzel logic you seem to like to get yourself into, you've already stated your position quite well...and it underscores why you can't see things clearly in this debate and keep chasing your tail. It's this:

"There is no substitute for Experience..."

You have it - at a level that seems to make you, and Ausp, feel very comfortable...some might say smug.

But you guys seem to have forgotten that many other sailors don't and that the only way to get it is to get out there and do it. Yet the only way to do that responsibly is to prepare yourself and your boat to be as safe as possible. AND, since this less-experienced sailor lacks the experience to know exactly how to do this on his/her own, he/she should definitely turn to the resources of more experienced sailors (be that crewing, ISAF, SAS, well-run rallies, races, whatever).

See, you're only half-right in your pronouncement. There IS actually a substitute for experience...it's courage-mixed-with-caution. Because the only way to gain the experience is to do it. I'm just a very strong advocate of doing it safely.
What I find most astonishing about this sort of argument, is the absolute IMPATIENCE on the part of so many sailors today, relatively new to the game, to somehow accelerate the learning curve, and become "Bluewater Passagemakers' literally overnight... Why the insistence that one needs to undertake such a passage early on as skipper, aboard their own boat?

I know, it's the way of the world now, people buying 40+ footers as their first boat, first place they want to sail to is the Caribbean... Fine, let them be "enticed" to join the 1500, where they can "rest assured that the ‘experts’ are there to take the pressure off ...", and not have to make the sort of decisions the SDR insist that each skipper, and that skipper alone, should be making...

I don't know how i can make it any plainer... Gaining experience TAKES TIME... Certainly, there is a wide variety of ways to obtain it, and I've always thought coastal cruising can be far more challenging, and educational, than sailing offshore... But one has to do stuff like go out when it's blowing like stink, and actually try stuff like heaving-to BEFORE setting off in the 1500...

I'm totally mystified, WHAT IS THE FREAKIN' RUSH, for those of lesser experience to be making these challenging offshore passages??? Many of them simply end up hating them, anyway... :-)

That's the one statistic I'd love to know - the ratio of rally participants whose first offshore passage, turned out to be their last... I'm guessing it's pretty close to 50-50... :-)
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Last edited by JonEisberg; 12-18-2013 at 09:02 PM.
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

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Hell, I sail a 40+ year old production boat myself, after all :-)
Have you removed and inspected your chain plates recently?:-)
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  #519  
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

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Have you removed and inspected your chain plates recently?:-)
Or dropped the rudder? Or replaced the standing rigging? Or replaced keel bolts?
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
"Enticed"??? You mean, like the obviously profitable Caribbean 1500 has been doing for over 20 years, with a substantial advertising budget, offering such promises as:

Or, "enticed" by the grassroots, non-profit upstart SDR, formed as an alternative to the 1500, that offers no such "enticement" beyond "opening the door to new friends and experiences while cruising various areas in the Caribbean", while making it perfectly clear that "it is the responsibility of each skipper to have proper safety equipment and to ensure that the vessel is prepared for the passage", and " It is each skipperís responsibility to decide the course and whether or not to set out for the passage."...

I don't know, the former sounds a lot more "enticing", to me... :-)
You keep wanting to make the SDR look better. It isn't, Jon. BOTH rallies (as well as others) are enticing sailors to do this passage (that was the reason I used the word "organization" instead of "SDR"). One of these rallies is very expensive and has a lot of safety regulations (good ones I think) that mean a good deal even more expense. The other rally is free...with no expensive regulations.

Free.

So, what's your point about comparative enticement again?
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