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post #521 of 961 Old 12-18-2013
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

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Have you removed and inspected your chain plates recently?:-)
Or dropped the rudder? Or replaced the standing rigging? Or replaced keel bolts?
Funny you guys should ask - all of the above, and more, actually... :-)

Chainplates replaced about 8 years ago, twice the thickness and roughly 1.5X the length of the originals...

Rudder completely rebuilt and re-designed to be far stronger and better balanced about 10 years ago - with much helpful input from our own esteemed Jeff H, I might add :-) I'd say it's now massively overbuilt, the original bronze 1 1/8" rudderstock upgraded to a 1 5/8" hunk of Nitronic 50 that was cut off a length of rod rigging for a 155' Perini Navi, seated in a tube and bearings from Tides Marine... I believe I can safely say I probably have the only Allied Chance 30-30 in existence, with a touch of Perini Navi pedigree... :-)





Standing rigging all relatively new Dyform and Sta-Loks...

Replaced the keel bolts? Hell, I swapped out the whole damn keel :-)

Again, with a lot of great advice from Jeff, I reduced my draft with a Tartan-style Beavertail from Mars Metals... Completely transformed the boat, a vast improvement over the original 70's style 'Shark Fin'...

Before:





And after:





So, yeah - while she may just be a Good Old Production Boat, she now bears little resemblance to the first one to be popped out of this mold in upstate New York, way back when I was still a college boy...





So, I'd sail her to the islands without a second thought - but I'd probably be more inclined to leave from Beaufort, instead... :-)

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post #522 of 961 Old 12-19-2013
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

You, sir, are good. Seriously. She looks awesome.
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post #523 of 961 Old 12-19-2013
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

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Let's not lose sight of the fact that most insurance companies moved "the" date from 1 Oct to 1 Nov as a result of a single storm. Insurance company actuaries are very conservative but don't always have all the data.
Good point, Dave - I'd sort of forgotten about that... Which is somewhat surprising, given the fact that change essentially cut the number of deliveries I could manage each fall in half :-) Which storm was that, again?

I remember at that time, I was doing a lot of deliveries for Ocean Yachts... That first year, I had to run one of their new sportfishers down to the Lauderdale Boat Show - which is always held over the last weekend in October... They had to move heaven and earth with their insurance company, to grant them a waiver to allow the boat to be in FL in time to be put in the show... UFB...

I had another pair of clients, who both had winter homes in Vero Beach, and each had a Grand Banks trawler... They were good friends and business associates, I ran their boats north and south for years... Great guys, I was always free to go on my schedule, their only request being that the boats be in Vero for Thanksgiving...

Well, after the change came, and neither boat could enter FL before November 1, I had to go thru the stupid exercise of running one first down to Brunswick, or Hilton Head, and leave it there... Then, head back to NJ to start down with the other, then drive back up to wherever to resume the first one, and so on...

Fortunately, after a year or two of this nonsense, both guys upgraded to Eastbays, which being much faster, I could run back to back within that time frame, no problem...

Still, those were the Good Old Days... :-)

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I don't know about prohibited, but you and I are definitely on the same page with regard to those abominations. How about we co-author an article for Sail or Cruising World? It might be a tough sell given the number of canvas ads in the magazines.
I'm afraid that would be a complete waste of time, Dave... No one wants to hear a dissenting view on enclosures, these days... :-)
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post #524 of 961 Old 12-19-2013
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

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You, sir, are good. Seriously. She looks awesome.
Thanks...

Just throwing good money after bad - and a bit of sweat equity - is all it takes... :-)

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post #525 of 961 Old 12-19-2013
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

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No and No IMHO. I believe and have seen here locally examples of how that can actually encourage a 'textbook' safety approach at the expense of real world, genuine seamanship.
Exactly - despite all the discussion this thread keeps coming back to safety rules and ignoring the skill, knowledge, and experience of the crew. A good crew (like, say, Beth and Evans) will make their own choices about what makes sense for them. ISAF be damned. It is not nearly as important as the crew.

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So, I'd sail her to the islands without a second thought - but I'd probably be more inclined to leave from Beaufort, instead... :-)
*big grin*
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post #526 of 961 Old 12-19-2013
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

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Originally Posted by SVAuspicious View Post
Exactly - despite all the discussion this thread keeps coming back to safety rules and ignoring the skill, knowledge, and experience of the crew. A good crew (like, say, Beth and Evans) will make their own choices about what makes sense for them. ISAF be damned. It is not nearly as important as the crew.
This really is a ridiculous argument. It ONLY applies to those with vast amounts of experience. If you really want to keep sailing an elitist pastime, Ausp, then knock yourself out, and enjoy your shrinking world.

In the mean time, there are LOTS of newer sailors all over the world that will have to earn that experience the way it's always been done: By going out and doing it...one step at a time. For them, I will always maintain they should look to every possible resource (ISAF included) and be cautious, smart, and deliberate to do so as safely as possible.

So newbs - don't settle for someone like Ausp telling you that you shouldn't sail if you don't have the experience of someone like Beth and Evans. On the other hand, don't settle for a fall rally that allows virtually any newb into it with the expectation/assumption that he/she has the experience of someone like Beth and Evans.

There is a very wide middle road between these two nonsensical extremes.

Last edited by smackdaddy; 12-19-2013 at 01:15 PM.
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post #527 of 961 Old 12-19-2013
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

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This really is a ridiculous argument. It ONLY applies to those with vast amounts of experience. If you really want to keep sailing an elitist pastime, Ausp, then knock yourself out, and enjoy your shrinking world.

In the mean time, there are LOTS of newer sailors all over the world that will have to earn that experience the way it's always been done: By going out and doing it...one step at a time. For them, I will always maintain they should look to every possible resource (ISAF included) and be cautious, smart, and deliberate to do so as safely as possible.

So newbs - don't settle for someone like Ausp telling you that you shouldn't sail if you don't have the experience of someone like Beth and Evans. On the other hand, don't settle for a fall rally that allows virtually any newb into it with the expectation/assumption that he/she has the experience of someone like Beth and Evans.

There is a very wide middle road between these two nonsensical extremes.
You are setting up a ridiculous strawman (or 2?) Smack. SVA didn't suggest for a minute that only highly experienced sailors should go offshore. In fact, I think he has volunteered with the SDR at least 1-2 years. They are the one's you say have indefensibly low standards, right? I think maybe you have too much of your personal credibility in this fight. I mean, pick your poison . . . is SVA encouraging newbies to sail into treacherous waters for which they are unprepared? Or, is he an elitist who would only want to see others with extensive offshore experience "out there"?

If I can turn back to the reality of it for a moment:

I know Dave, and while our online personalities don't always mesh, I know he is both a decent and helpful guy. The fact that I know him in connection with helping to prepare and plan for my first extensive offshore run (my previous long run had been only 36 hours . . . maybe BW maybe coastal depending on definitions) makes me very confident that he is neither of the things you alternatively suggest (elitist or cavalierly sending newbie offshore).

The thing is -- and the thing that I really think you are missing -- is that SVA didn't encourage me to sail offshore. As I imagine pretty much everyone who actual sails offshore does, I made that decision myself (and in fact you confront and make the decision multiple times leading up to such a passage). What he did was help me become *better prepared*. The things we discussed (pilot charts, charts and fall-off points, local conditions in bahamian waters, SSB wx reception, etc) were all things I was familiar with at certain levels. I had personal experience with some and had read about others. SVA helped me raise that understanding -- and by doing so made me better prepared. The point I am trying to make is not about SVA or me at all -- it is the universal point (and the flaw with your concern or argument) -- *individuals* make the decision to sail offshore. It is almost the essence of the thing. For me, I probably wouldn't be interested in a rally precisely because it might take away from that essence. On the other hand, they provide a real resource. The type of resource I can see value in having. If you suggest that they shouldn't be able to provide that resource unless (cough) it isn't needed . . . well, again I am glad SN is not where policy is made.
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post #528 of 961 Old 12-19-2013
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

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You may be taking too lightly the fact that weather routing for such a passage doesn't end upon departure, but is only just beginning... One is not necessarily stuck with the weather one "gets", a good router like Herb, or Chris, can be of great assistance in helping sailors avoid the worst, or take advantage of favorable developments throughout the entire duration of the passage...:-)
In my mindset, I'm plowing along out there at 5 kts at best and have a fast moving storm barreling down on me at 20mph more or less. I'm not so sure I could execute the avoidance route suggested by the weather router. This by the way may be the best argument for a greater than 40 ft boat.

Your boat is beautiful and the work you have done is impressive. The reason for my chain plate comment is that when I got my boat in 2006, I faced some serious standing rigging problems, so ended up replacing it all, but did not know enough to take out and inspect the chain plates. After reading here many reports of chain plate problems I tackled that job this last week. I'm happy to say mine looked fine and polished up nicely with no bulkhead rot or compression, etc. Your comment about putting in longer chain plates than the originals is interesting. It seems to me the least strong portion of the chain plate is that portion extending above the deck, given there is no corrosion within the deck area and that the longer tail section is really addressing the potential weakness of the bulkhead to which it is attached. So, was longer necessary?

New subject. There seems to be serious conflict about how one gains experience. To what degree does the ASA courses build the experience necessary to qualify for one of these regattas? Their 108 course "Offshore Passage Making" states the student can act as captain or crew on a sailing vessel on offshore passages in any weather.
Could this then be part of the "experience" qualification to meet minimum participation?
Talk amount yourselves...
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

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You are setting up a ridiculous strawman (or 2?) Smack. SVA didn't suggest for a minute that only highly experienced sailors should go offshore. In fact, I think he has volunteered with the SDR at least 1-2 years. They are the one's you say have indefensibly low standards, right? I think maybe you have too much of your personal credibility in this fight. I mean, pick your poison . . . is SVA encouraging newbies to sail into treacherous waters for which they are unprepared? Or, is he an elitist who would only want to see others with extensive offshore experience "out there"?

If I can turn back to the reality of it for a moment:

I know Dave, and while our online personalities don't always mesh, I know he is both a decent and helpful guy. The fact that I know him in connection with helping to prepare and plan for my first extensive offshore run (my previous long run had been only 36 hours . . . maybe BW maybe coastal depending on definitions) makes me very confident that he is neither of the things you alternatively suggest (elitist or cavalierly sending newbie offshore).

The thing is -- and the thing that I really think you are missing -- is that SVA didn't encourage me to sail offshore. As I imagine pretty much everyone who actual sails offshore does, I made that decision myself (and in fact you confront and make the decision multiple times leading up to such a passage). What he did was help me become *better prepared*. The things we discussed (pilot charts, charts and fall-off points, local conditions in bahamian waters, SSB wx reception, etc) were all things I was familiar with at certain levels. I had personal experience with some and had read about others. SVA helped me raise that understanding -- and by doing so made me better prepared. The point I am trying to make is not about SVA or me at all -- it is the universal point (and the flaw with your concern or argument) -- *individuals* make the decision to sail offshore. It is almost the essence of the thing. For me, I probably wouldn't be interested in a rally precisely because it might take away from that essence. On the other hand, they provide a real resource. The type of resource I can see value in having. If you suggest that they shouldn't be able to provide that resource unless (cough) it isn't needed . . . well, again I am glad SN is not where policy is made.
Stink, here's the reality: If the SDR (specifically them due to their hands-off approach) uses the same standard SVA uses to judge a sailor fit for a passage like this I have absolutely no argument. The problem is, they don't. The fact that he doesn't mind such a low standard of entry for a rally like this - but still expects a high standard of experience-based knowledge/judgment for each participating skipper is about as straw man as one can get. You just can't have it both ways. It's a dangerous combination.

What makes this whole discussion bizarre is that I actually agree with Ausp and Jon regarding the level of experience one should have to do this trip. It's the SDR that disagrees with them - not me. Yet, where is their energy going?

Again, my argument is not geared toward Ausp or Jon or any individual (unless they say something silly). It's geared specifically toward the rally organization (be it SDR, or whomever operates similarly). If that organization truly does for their less-experienced participants the kinds of things Ausp did for you:

Quote:
What he did was help me become *better prepared*. The things we discussed (pilot charts, charts and fall-off points, local conditions in bahamian waters, SSB wx reception, etc) were all things I was familiar with at certain levels. I had personal experience with some and had read about others. SVA helped me raise that understanding -- and by doing so made me better prepared.
Then we have absolutely no argument. (And no, a limited attendance, single day seminar is not enough in my opinion - and is definitely not "several up and down the East Coast" as he said.)

If that organization doesn't do this, and if they have a bar for entry that is far, far below what Ausp or Jon would ever recommend for such a trip - what exactly are these guys defending? This is where reality is getting bent.

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The point I am trying to make is not about SVA or me at all -- it is the universal point (and the flaw with your concern or argument) -- *individuals* make the decision to sail offshore. It is almost the essence of the thing. For me, I probably wouldn't be interested in a rally precisely because it might take away from that essence. On the other hand, they provide a real resource. The type of resource I can see value in having. If you suggest that they shouldn't be able to provide that resource unless (cough) it isn't needed . . . well, again I am glad SN is not where policy is made.
You're absolutely right. Individuals make that choice to undertake and continue a passage...except in a rally...where choices get a lot more complex. If a rally is a good resource - I'm all over it. If it's not - something should change to make it one.

Last edited by smackdaddy; 12-20-2013 at 12:17 PM.
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

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I know Dave, and while our online personalities don't always mesh, I know he is both a decent and helpful guy. The fact that I know him in connection with helping to prepare and plan for my first extensive offshore run (my previous long run had been only 36 hours . . . maybe BW maybe coastal depending on definitions) makes me very confident that he is neither of the things you alternatively suggest (elitist or cavalierly sending newbie offshore).
Thank you. That is kind.

Short story, and I hope I don't embarrass anyone. I recall a relevant passage in which someone I know was getting beaten up and really wanted to run an inlet. With the crew on a sat phone, me in Annapolis, an SSB call into Marsh Harbour, and a VHF link to Guana we got real time information on the inlet to determine if entrance was safe.

Sorry for the digression. My point is that I *want* people to be out sailing. I *want* to help them be self-sufficient. My favorite owner-aboard deliveries are those that end with the owners telling me they won't need me next time. I love those trips.

My point is simple. I don't understand why it is obscured. ISAF regulations for what equipment to have on board misses the most important factor of crew skill, knowledge, and experience.

On delivery I ALWAYS have one spot for a new person building that experience. I take it as a personal responsibility to the cruising community to give back. How can I reasonably expect experience if I don't contribute to it, as others contributed to mine?

You don't have to spend years and years (well some people may, based on the belligerency in this thread) to develop that experience. Most of it isn't that hard. Unfortunately you can't teach judgment.

sail fast and eat well, dave S/V Auspicious

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