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  #561  
Old 12-23-2013
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
What the hell? My Hunter didn't come with the scantily clad au pair!?!?

Damn Salty Dawg Rally.
What year did you say your boat was manufactured? Maybe the au pair has a pair of her own back in France and needs to be replaced with a new model.
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  #562  
Old 12-25-2013
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
Sorry, but it IS only you... Neither Peter Nielsen, nor John Harries are saying that the Salty Dawg Rally has a problem with "Group Think" exclusive to them, or that is a consequence of their putting full responsibility in the hands of their participants, or their lack of a safety inspection... Harries, in fact, made it clear that he was speaking of these fall rallies in general, and not just the SDR...

It is you who continues to argue that the SDR is the one doing it wrong, and that changes need to be made... Again, I find the notion that the one rally which puts total responsibility in the hands of its participants, being singled out as the one that needs to better address the issue of "Group Think", completely baffling...

But, perhaps that's just me... :-)
Well, it's clear that you're baffled. That's for sure.

On your first point, I've never said "Group Think" is exclusive to the SDR. I'm not sure where you got that. I fully agree that it's an issue with all rallies - and, therefore, fully agree with Nielsen and Harries in this regard. So you're wrong (or just baffled) on this one.

On your second point, you're right...I think the SDR is doing it wrong. But as I said, I'm not the only one that holds this view. Again, though he's not as blunt as I am, you seem to be missing Nielsen's point. Let me boil it down:

Quote:
The Salty Dawg people...take a laissez-faire approach that places the onus for preparation and decision-making on the individual skippers. Rightly so, you may say, and I would usually be the first to agree, as the ultimate responsibility for a boat's safety rest squarely on the shoulders of its captain.

But...
See that big "but"? That's Nielsen's but not mine.

I understand you just can't get your mind past what you already think. But, sorry, it's pretty clear that it ISN'T only me seeing problems with the SDR.
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Last edited by smackdaddy; 12-25-2013 at 01:21 AM.
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  #563  
Old 12-25-2013
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

To: Smackdaddy and Jon

Merry Christmas. Perhaps an event in history is applicable today with regard to your ongoing postings on rallies.


Best wishes to you both in the new year.

Regards,
Ron
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  #564  
Old 12-25-2013
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Quote:
Originally Posted by luv4sailin View Post
To: Smackdaddy and Jon

Merry Christmas. Perhaps an event in history is applicable today with regard to your ongoing postings on rallies.

Christmas truce - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Best wishes to you both in the new year.

Regards,
Ron
Remember - Jon and I are like siblings. We hammer on each other relentlessly, but it's not malicious. I respect him. I just like giving him noogies.

Merry Christmas to all. Even you Jon Eisberg.
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  #565  
Old 12-25-2013
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

For Smack & Jon--

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  #566  
Old 12-26-2013
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

For those that keep circling back to rules like those of ISAF as the "solution" to safety at sea read this earlier thread: Can You Buy Safety? .

Safety inspections--ISAF-based or not--are simply NOT the answer to improved safety at sea. Judgment, skill, and experience in that order are the answer. "Stuff" is a distant fourth. Unfortunately you can't teach judgment. I think you can learn it with enough scar tissue. *grin*
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  #567  
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
Well, it's clear that you're baffled. That's for sure.
OK, the Christmas Truce is over... :-)

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
On your first point, I've never said "Group Think" is exclusive to the SDR. I'm not sure where you got that.
Post #548, perhaps?

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
But I think you nailed the problem...it's the "wishy-washy" nature of group think that has to be accounted for in these rallies. And the SDR, it seems, is currently not doing a great job of this IMUSO.
True, "group think" is not an issue exclusive to the SDR, but according to you, they're the ones not adequately addressing it, and the ones who need to "change"...

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
On your second point, you're right...I think the SDR is doing it wrong. But as I said, I'm not the only one that holds this view. Again, though he's not as blunt as I am, you seem to be missing Nielsen's point. Let me boil it down:
Quote:
The Salty Dawg people...take a laissez-faire approach that places the onus for preparation and decision-making on the individual skippers. Rightly so, you may say, and I would usually be the first to agree, as the ultimate responsibility for a boat's safety rest squarely on the shoulders of its captain.
So, then - here's what Nielsen is saying in effect, and you are in complete agreement with, when applied to the SDR:

Normally, I'm inclined to believe that the ultimate responsibility for a boat's safety rest squarely on the shoulders of its captain. Except, in the case of the rally whose mission statement makes it perfectly clear from the outset that the ultimate responsibility for a boat's safety rest squarely on the shoulders of its captain...

Completely nonsensical... Congrats, you're following Lewis Carrol through the rabbit hole and into ALICE IN WONDERLAND, with your endorsement of that sort of 'logic'... :-)


Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
Quote:
But...
See that big "but"? That's Nielsen's but not mine.
Oh, really? Then why did you stamp everything he wrote following that "But" with your own imprimatur of "EXACTLY" ???

Quote:
But of all the reasons to join a flock of other boats in an organized blue water rally, surely the notion of safety is one of the strongest. I suspect that the passage that lay ahead of the skippers in the Salty Dawg and the C1500 would be the longest most of them had undertaken, and faced with the unfamiliar, there is certainty of comfort in company, and at least the illusion of safety in numbers.
OK, help me out here, since you appear to know "exactly" what Nielsen means with this nonsensical non-sequitur. Is this where the SDR has gone wrong, in their refusal to embrace the "certainty of comfort in company, and at least the illusion of safety in numbers." ? Is THAT, indeed, the rationale for sailing in a rally, "finding comfort" in the Placebo of Superstition? Are we to the point where weather routers should now be thinking twice before endorsing a Friday departure, as well?

You keep insisting that the SDR is 'doing it wrong', and yet neither you, nor Neilsen, say with any degree of clarity what the SDR did wrong, how it contributed to the difficulties some boats encountered, or what should be done to prevent this from happening again... Beyond some vague rhetoric about ensuring participants are more experienced, or whatever... Need I remind you yet again that - at least as far as we know at this point - none of the participants in this year's SDR performed stunts of seamanship as stupid as those performed in a recent 1500? Such as entering Oregon Inlet in a big NE swell, or attempting to enter a cut in the Abacos, at night, during a rage?

What makes our back and forth on this especially amusing, is our relative positions we've debated in prior "Bluewater vs. Production Boats" threads... I seem to recall you generally taking the position that it's always the sailor, not the boat, that matters - and that in general most any production boat is adequate for bluewater voyaging...

Based upon what we know so far about the incidents last month, if there is one possible lesson to take away, it might be this: Passagemakers have to give very serious consideration about setting out in 'ordinary' production boats, particularly ones that might be 25-30 years old...

With the exception of JAMMIN', and the Catana 47 that lost it's carbon fiber rig, the C-38, the OI 41, and the Alden 54 were all likely built in the 70's or 80's... Could be just me, but a boat like AHIMSA would not be high on my list of vintage production boats to make this trip, and I would pass on doing a delivery of one over that route... That boat was new to her owners, who knows what condition it was in. The HC-38 NYAPA was sailed by some pretty experienced cruisers, and by at least one account was very well maintained... And the Alden ZULU was a beautiful, high-quality boat, and I'm guessing she simply fell prey to an instance of "Sh_t Happening" that can occur aboard even the most well-found vessel...

Again, I simply think that much of the hand-wringing over what occurred last month is a bit overwrought - especially when compared to far more serious or higher percentage of incidents in previous rallies... I'm content to let Evans Starzinger have the final word:

Quote:
Finally, there were a couple hundred boats going down that route, many of them with limited offshore experience, and it is a tough route in early Nov, so the failure rate is actually not all that bad. It could be much better, most of these things could have been avoided, but it is not terrible all things considered (inexperience and conditions).

Fact of life: occasionally things break and stuff happens at sea - in a large fleet there will be incidents.

Salty Dog Rally Incidents - Page 4 - Cruisers & Sailing Forums

Last edited by JonEisberg; 12-26-2013 at 09:00 AM.
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  #568  
Old 12-26-2013
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
What the hell? My Hunter didn't come with the scantily clad au pair!?!
I didn't realize that I should have had one on my Hunter.

After reading about this critical piece of equipment here on Sailnet, I contacted Hunter in Florida to see about getting my boat up to its like-new condition.

Unfortunately, because of the age of my boat ('89) Hunter did not stock the parts. The new au pairs do not fit the old (pre '94) designs - they're metric.

So, O.E.M. was out of the question, I decided to go 'after market' - there are some pretty good ones out there....

This model would fit, but I can't afford the price tag (it's maintenance costs are very high, plus it is incompatible with my crew):



I looked on Craigslist and found this re-furbished model:



I have heard about the risk of silicone seepage so I decided to go for a well-maintained factory original. Her name is Mirielle - she's from Montreal. So far I'm very happy with her. Here she is installed in my cockpit:

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  #569  
Old 12-26-2013
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Quote:
JonEisberg:
{snip}
I seem to recall you generally taking the position that it's always the sailor, not the boat, that matters - and that in general most any production boat is adequate for bluewater voyaging...

Based upon what we know so far about the incidents last month, if there is one possible lesson to take away, it might be this: Passagemakers have to give very serious consideration about setting out in 'ordinary' production boats, particularly ones that might be 25-30 years old...
{snip}
For example: READ ME
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  #570  
Old 12-26-2013
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

You two are seriously high-maintenance. But it's the holidays, so I'll continue to try to help you understand things.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SVAuspicious View Post
For those that keep circling back to rules like those of ISAF as the "solution" to safety at sea read this earlier thread: Can You Buy Safety? .

Safety inspections--ISAF-based or not--are simply NOT the answer to improved safety at sea. Judgment, skill, and experience in that order are the answer. "Stuff" is a distant fourth. Unfortunately you can't teach judgment. I think you can learn it with enough scar tissue. *grin*
I don't think anyone has said that ISAF is the "'solution' to safety at sea". You seem to have trouble understanding what you read.

I won't re-hash it all here, because I think I've been very clear about the issues surrounding the SDR being the combination of a low bar to entry (especially for this stretch of ocean at this time of year) combined with their laissez faire approach to safety. Maybe you can find someone to explain this to you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
True, "group think" is not an issue exclusive to the SDR, but according to you, they're the ones not adequately addressing it, and the ones who need to "change"...
Right. You seem to be in the same confused boat as Ausp. See the above for the problem with the SDR. I think I've been very clear about that.

They should at least change one or the other of these current approaches.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
So, then - here's what Nielsen is saying in effect, and you are in complete agreement with, when applied to the SDR:

Normally, I'm inclined to believe that the ultimate responsibility for a boat's safety rest squarely on the shoulders of its captain. Except, in the case of the rally whose mission statement makes it perfectly clear from the outset that the ultimate responsibility for a boat's safety rest squarely on the shoulders of its captain...

Completely nonsensical... Congrats, you're following Lewis Carrol through the rabbit hole and into ALICE IN WONDERLAND, with your endorsement of that sort of 'logic'... :-)
Yes...what you typed above is completely non-sensical. Of course, no one in this debate has ever said anything like that. If that's really what you understand Nielsen to being saying when you read his quote, that explains perfectly why you don't understand what's being talked about here.

It's always better to stick with what someone actually says than trying mightily to twist it to fit your point. Otherwise, "in effect", you're saying that:

"Nielsen is a fool who believes that inexperienced sailors should rub themselves with seal fat and try to ride a polar bear."

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
Post #548, perhaps?

True, "group think" is not an issue exclusive to the SDR, but according to you, they're the ones not adequately addressing it, and the ones who need to "change"...
Cool. So you're reversing yourself and finally acknowledging what I actually wrote instead of spinning into another rabbit hole. Thank you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
Oh, really? Then why did you stamp everything he wrote following that "But" with your own imprimatur of "EXACTLY" ???

OK, help me out here, since you appear to know "exactly" what Nielsen means with this nonsensical non-sequitur.
I said "exactly" because I agree with what he wrote. Let me try yet again to boil it down for you...while you keep in mind the title of his article, "Group Think":

Quote:
The Salty Dawg people...take a laissez-faire approach that places the onus for preparation and decision-making on the individual skippers. Rightly so, you may say, and I would usually be the first to agree, as the ultimate responsibility for a boat's safety rest squarely on the shoulders of its captain.
Now - to this point, he said he would usually see things the way you and Ausp (and most everyone else including me) sees them...that the ultimate responsibility for a boat's safety rest squarely on the shoulders of its captain.

But then there's the but...

Quote:
But of all the reasons to join a flock of other boats in an organized blue water rally, surely the notion of safety is one of the strongest. I suspect that the passage that lay ahead of the skippers in the Salty Dawg and the C1500 would be the longest most of them had undertaken, and faced with the unfamiliar, there is certainty of comfort in company, and at least the illusion of safety in numbers.
For the less-experienced skippers (the ones Ausp and you seem to continually ignore in your diatribes) - the notion of "safety" provided by the rally is an illusion. Exactly.

This is the higher risk I've been talking about for this entire thread. And if this illusion is not dealt with by the rally - by either increasing the experience-level for entry, or NOT taking a laissez faire approach to these sailor's safety - that organization is creating a dangerous situation (while making money off of it).

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
You keep insisting that the SDR is 'doing it wrong', and yet neither you, nor Neilsen, say with any degree of clarity what the SDR did wrong...
Actually, I've said very clearly, over and over again, what the SDR is doing wrong. I've said it twice now above. I'm not sure I can make it any more clear to you and Ausp without diagrams drawn with a crayon.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
What makes our back and forth on this especially amusing, is our relative positions we've debated in prior "Bluewater vs. Production Boats" threads... I seem to recall you generally taking the position that it's always the sailor, not the boat, that matters - and that in general most any production boat is adequate for bluewater voyaging...
Absolutely right. Now if the SDR agreed with you and increased their standard of entry to match your view - we'd be golden. If they're NOT going to do that (especially if there is ANY financial incentive in not doing so) then that boat (and its safety equipment) is likely going to have to play a much more critical role...especially under the illusion of safety Nielsen mentions.
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Last edited by smackdaddy; 12-26-2013 at 01:28 PM.
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