Rallies Gone Wrong - Page 58 - SailNet Community

   Search Sailnet:

 forums  store  


Quick Menu
Forums           
Articles          
Galleries        
Boat Reviews  
Classifieds     
Search SailNet 
Boat Search (new)

Shop the
SailNet Store
Anchor Locker
Boatbuilding & Repair
Charts
Clothing
Electrical
Electronics
Engine
Hatches and Portlights
Interior And Galley
Maintenance
Marine Electronics
Navigation
Other Items
Plumbing and Pumps
Rigging
Safety
Sailing Hardware
Trailer & Watersports
Clearance Items

Advertise Here






Go Back   SailNet Community > Out There > Vessels Lost, Missing, or in Danger
 Not a Member? 


Like Tree360Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #571  
Old 12-26-2013
SVAuspicious's Avatar
Mermaid Hunter
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: on the boat - Chesapeake
Posts: 2,980
Thanks: 0
Thanked 57 Times in 47 Posts
Rep Power: 8
SVAuspicious will become famous soon enough
Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Let's go back to the beginning. This thread is way too long for me to take the time to pull every one of your posts out but I recall that you have been pretty consistent.

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
No boat/safety inspection, etc. This is pretty typical. But then we look back to distress/rescues in past rallies such as the NARC, etc. - and you have to wonder...

Is it merely the statistical concentration of this many boats in one rally - and we're simply seeing the standard ratio of distresses to the number of boats? Or is it something else?

Personally, as a dude that has researched off-shore rescues quite a bit, I'm wondering why these kinds of rallies don't require Safety At Sea training like off-shore racing does. Or why don't they at least enforce ISAF rules?
Click 'greater than' symbol for the entire context.

The consistent thread in your commentary is that safety inspections in general and ISAF rules in particular are the minimum appropriate entry criteria.

Jon and I clearly feel differently. Judgment, skill, and experience are more important than 'stuff' on the boat. Unfortunately your vehemence to the contrary doesn't serve others who may come across this thread later well. Now Jon and I are just a couple of guys that sail the bottom paint off many boats. Apparently our combined experience doesn't give you pause to reflect on our counsel. That's fine. We're just a couple of guys who give back as much as we can to the cruising community. Would you like to see correspondence from Hank Schmitt (one of the best skippers I have had the pleasure to sail with) or Evans Starzinger? The article from the Pardeys didn't make an impression?

Enough is enough. It is one thing to disagree on the merits, and discuss on that basis. I fear this one belongs in OT as a religious discussion - the leap of faith that is necessary to reach the conclusion you espouse can go nowhere else.

IGNORE
__________________
sail fast and eat well, dave
S/V Auspicious
AuspiciousWorks.com
beware "cut and paste" sailors.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #572  
Old 12-26-2013
smackdaddy's Avatar
Last Man Standing
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 12,951
Thanks: 80
Thanked 72 Times in 66 Posts
Rep Power: 8
smackdaddy is a jewel in the rough smackdaddy is a jewel in the rough smackdaddy is a jewel in the rough
Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Quote:
Originally Posted by SVAuspicious View Post
Let's go back to the beginning. This thread is way too long for me to take the time to pull every one of your posts out but I recall that you have been pretty consistent.

The consistent thread in your commentary is that safety inspections in general and ISAF rules in particular are the minimum appropriate entry criteria.

IGNORE
You really need to make up your mind on the ignore thing. It's a little silly.

I have been very consistent that the ISAF thing is a very good thing to have in a rally (like with the C1500)...especially if the experience bar to entry is low.

If a rally has a low bar for entry, and no safety requirements, as does the SDR, there's a problem.

You've been very consistent in misunderstanding this very basic premise (only focusing on one side of the issue). But it's good to know you're following along.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

S/V Dawn Treader - 1989 Hunter Legend 40
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #573  
Old 12-26-2013
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 3,397
Thanks: 0
Thanked 114 Times in 101 Posts
Rep Power: 4
JonEisberg will become famous soon enough
Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
I have been very consistent that the ISAF thing is a very good thing to have in a rally (like with the C1500)...especially if the experience bar to entry is low.
I suppose this is as good an example as any, as to why you and I will NEVER reach any common ground on this issue... You keep repeating that bolded part, as if it were true, or that the SDR's bar is set lower than the 1500's... :-) If anything, by placing the sole responsibility upon the participants themselves, a good argument can be made that the bar is set higher, by definition, than for those who are willing to cede the decision-making re departure, and prep of their boat, to the Gurus of the 1500...

Your continual insistence that - simply because the SDR had no safety inspection - they are minimally concerned with 'Safety', is quite a stretch... I was not involved in the SDR, so of course can offer no first hand examples of the safety of the fleet being uppermost in the minds of the organizers, so perhaps it's best to hear from someone who actually participated...

By far, the best account I've found from one of the boats who ran into serious trouble, is from the blog of the family aboard NYAPA, the HC 38 that was dismasted... For the few who might still be following this thread, I highly recommend reading their account, linked to below...

Since what happened aboard NYAPA is ostensibly one of the consequences of what the SDR is doing wrong, please feel free to point out how they were "enticed" into doing the rally, examples of their "low experience level", what role "Group Think" played in their particular misadventure, or how a Safety Inspection might have averted the loss of their rig (despite having replaced all of their standing rigging a few months prior to departure).

First, their testimonial:

Quote:
I want to extend my heartfelt thanks for all your efforts in making the SDR happen. In our case, we had intended to go to the BVI’s on our own and joined the SDR for the social aspect and the communication network set in place while underway. I don’t think we would have joined if the SDR did not offer flexibility. Since John and I both tend to be independent thinkers this was essential for us. With that in mind, we left with the mind set that we were responsible for whatever would come our way and more came our way than we anticipated!

It was a great relief to me that the framework for communication was in place and we were able to connect with others and relay what was going on, receive weather information and it was, in general, just encouraging to have that daily communication. I cannot tell you how grateful I am for this and I thank you for your being firm about the need for backup communications! We definitely had some communication snafus that we had to work around and through.

Since our return to the Chesapeake we have been so touched by the outreach of the cruising community, we have experienced nothing but kindness and understanding during a time when we felt pretty horrible at the loss of our rig. We are currently in South Carolina on the fast track for Florida where we will be doing repairs. It looks like the next week is bringing us some warm weather, hallelujah!

John and I once again extend our heartfelt thanks for all the support of the SDR, we wish you the very best in future rallies and hope our paths cross again some day!

-Amy Pollard, sv —yapa
And, why not, let's hear from the smallest boat in the fleet, the very experienced British couple aboard RUFFIAN:

Quote:

The Salty Dawg Rally (SDR) has grown up from a little puppy into a full blown hound. In the Spring of 2013 we headed north with a loose collection of sailors where we found community, camaraderie and and a pool of unsurpassed knowledge. We joined them again in the Fall 2013 rally where we found the same sense of community and the same shared goal safely and successfully crossing oceans, but they had matured into something so much more.

We watched with horror in 2012 as the ARC fleet departed Las Palmas into shocking heavy weather and again in the Spring of 2013 when they left the BVI’s into 100’s of miles of no wind and vowed that the usual organised rallies were not for us. The SDR is no ‘usual rally’.

The SDR, through it’s generous sponsors, enabled us to have a safe and successful crossing from the BVI’s to North America on our 34ft yacht. Had we gone our own way and not had the support of the rally and it’s included weather routing from Chris Parker, we would have been battered by a storm that was not forecast by GRIB’s or NOAA in a timely fashion.

With the additional sponsors, the formal and informal gatherings to share information and expertise they were now able to welcome both world cruisers and those relatively ‘green’ to ocean passages. Having Chris Parker talk to the fleet about the weather we could expect on the journey south and safely routing us through the gulf stream proved to be invaluable and when the going got tough he proved to be a voice of calm and reason.

If we were to head to America again or indeed if the SDR’s were to spread their wings into northern Europe we would, without doubt, join them again for everything they bring to cruising experience.

Iain and Fiona Lewis, sy Ruffian
Finally, the account from NYAPA... Clearly, a rally that sets such a low bar as to "entice" sailors such as this to set off for Paradise with such a laissez faire approach to safety , has a problem... :-)

—YAPA DISMASTED AT SEA | ABOUT A VOYAGE



Last edited by JonEisberg; 12-27-2013 at 09:45 AM.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #574  
Old 12-31-2013
smackdaddy's Avatar
Last Man Standing
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 12,951
Thanks: 80
Thanked 72 Times in 66 Posts
Rep Power: 8
smackdaddy is a jewel in the rough smackdaddy is a jewel in the rough smackdaddy is a jewel in the rough
Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
I suppose this is as good an example as any, as to why you and I will NEVER reach any common ground on this issue... You keep repeating that bolded part, as if it were true,
As if it were true? Are you serious, Jon? You're right, we will NEVER reach common ground if you're not going to be honest about your position. The bolded part was this:

Quote:
"...especially if the experience bar to entry is low"
And earlier in this thread when I asked your personal opinion on this bar to entry for the SDR, you said this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
Well, here's what I would say:

Don't do it... A newbie without much offshore experience has no business sailing his own boat from Newport direct to the Caribbean in November...
So which is it? Is the bar to entry for the SDR (or even C1500) low for this trip, or is it not?

Personally, I agree with your above quote. It's your (and Ausp's) double-sidedness on this issue that's so confusing - i.e. - it's somehow okay for the SDR to have a standard that's exactly the opposite of what you actually believe. You both either want it both ways, or you're just not willing to stand up for your viewpoint against the SDR (for some "strange" reason).

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
or that the SDR's bar is set lower than the 1500's... :-) If anything, by placing the sole responsibility upon the participants themselves, a good argument can be made that the bar is set higher, by definition, than for those who are willing to cede the decision-making re departure, and prep of their boat, to the Gurus of the 1500...
I don't believe I have said anywhere that the bar for entry to the SDR is significantly higher or lower than the C1500. That's a comparison you keep desperately trying to make. Not me.

They are both low in my opinion. But only one of them provides some level of back-up for that (the C1500 via its ISAF-based standards and inspections).

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
Your continual insistence that - simply because the SDR had no safety inspection - they are minimally concerned with 'Safety', is quite a stretch... I was not involved in the SDR, so of course can offer no first hand examples of the safety of the fleet being uppermost in the minds of the organizers, so perhaps it's best to hear from someone who actually participated...
For the millionth time - it is the SDR's low bar to entry combined with the lack of demonstrable safety standards that is the problem. They need to change one or the other. And, unless you're changing your position yet again, you agree, at least, with the bar to entry issue. So, yes, I can easily state my opinion that with this combination - the SDR is not concerned enough with safety.

So, you can TRY to make the argument above that "by definition" the bar for the SDR is set higher due to its laissez faire approach - but here's the problem...it comes back to enticement.

What is FREE worth to most people? If you really want to keep comparing the two, start with comparing the COST OF ENTRY and tell me about the level of overall commitment required on the part of a skipper in one vs. the other. Sorry, Jon, this "by definition" argument of yours doesn't hold up even for a second.

Let's look at the quotes you brought from those blogs for the real benefits of the SDR:

What you bolded:
Quote:
I don’t think we would have joined if the SDR did not offer flexibility. Since John and I both tend to be independent thinkers this was essential for us.

What you didn't:
Quote:
We had intended to go to the BVI’s on our own and joined the SDR for the social aspect and the communication network set in place while underway.
Social aspect I can understand - but why do "independent skippers" that have no need of outside "gurus" telling them what to do need the communication network of a rally? Is it just the social needs of the lady aboard? Or is it something more (see below)?

What you bolded:
Quote:
I cannot tell you how grateful I am for this and I thank you for your being firm about the need for backup communications!
So you're all for the SDR gurus "being firm about the need for backup communications" - but this approach is suddenly bad when the C1500 does likewise on this and many other areas?

Again, you're not being consistent.

What you didn't:
Quote:
It was a great relief to me that the framework for communication was in place and we were able to connect with others and relay what was going on, receive weather information and it was, in general, just encouraging to have that daily communication.
Hold on to this bolded piece. It's important.

And from the second example...

Quote:
In the Spring of 2013 we headed north with a loose collection of sailors where we found community, camaraderie and and a pool of unsurpassed knowledge.
Pretty typical expectations of what a rally provides. That last part though - how exactly is that tapped prior to the run? If it's such an important aspect of the rally, how does the less experienced skipper benefit from it prior to the roasted pig and Painkillers? And if "a pool of unsurpassed knowledge" is so important, why is there so much resistance to one of the best pools of this on the planet - the one that the C1500 uses? One rally is very clearly meeting that need. The other? Who knows?

Now Jon...I WANT YOU TO READ THE FOLLOWING QUOTE VERY CAREFULLY...

Quote:
The SDR, through it’s generous sponsors, enabled us to have a safe and successful crossing from the BVI’s to North America on our 34ft yacht. Had we gone our own way and not had the support of the rally and it’s included weather routing from Chris Parker, we would have been battered by a storm that was not forecast by GRIB’s or NOAA in a timely fashion.
Is this the independent skipper you're talking about? Seriously? Is there maybe some enticement in there? Then this...

Quote:
With the additional sponsors, the formal and informal gatherings to share information and expertise they were now able to welcome both world cruisers and those relatively ‘green’ to ocean passages. Having Chris Parker talk to the fleet about the weather we could expect on the journey south and safely routing us through the gulf stream proved to be invaluable and when the going got tough he proved to be a voice of calm and reason.
Now to the NYAPA thing...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
By far, the best account I've found from one of the boats who ran into serious trouble, is from the blog of the family aboard NYAPA, the HC 38 that was dismasted... For the few who might still be following this thread, I highly recommend reading their account, linked to below...

Since what happened aboard NYAPA is ostensibly one of the consequences of what the SDR is doing wrong, please feel free to point out how they were "enticed" into doing the rally, examples of their "low experience level", what role "Group Think" played in their particular misadventure, or how a Safety Inspection might have averted the loss of their rig (despite having replaced all of their standing rigging a few months prior to departure).

Finally, the account from NYAPA... Clearly, a rally that sets such a low bar as to "entice" sailors such as this to set off for Paradise with such a laissez faire approach to safety , has a problem... :-)
I think I'll just let the NYAPA skipper/crew say it for me...

Quote:
The biggest regret we have through all of this is we did not heave to immediately and check to see what was going on with our rigging. We payed for this mistake in a big way, yet it could have been much worse so we are also grateful that it didn’t include a serious injury or loss of life. When something major happens to your boat like this, it makes sense that other things are going to go also, we weren’t completely prepared for this. Over the years John and I have attended a number of off-shore seminars and the one thing that gets repeated over and over is to have a back up for the back up. Now I get it. When we lost our parachute anchor we could have cried and we learned the hard way not to skimp on important gear.
Now, what is the primary point of knowledge they list? Their experience you and Ausp seem so smitten with? No - seminars. "Now they get it." What if the SDR offered all their participants more of these learning opportunities and safety standards so everyone involved could also "get it".

Look - at the end of the day, here is the SDR enticement I see in all the accounts you list above: Free Weather Routing Services.

This is the crux of all of it in my opinion - for those "independent skippers" (more or less experienced) who don't want to go the route of an expensive, rigid rally like the C1500.

You, the skipper (at whatever level of green you may be), don't have to pay a dime to enter. You can do whatever you want, take your boat in whatever shape it's in, not have anyone (like Jon or Ausp) telling you that you're likely not experienced enough for this run at this time of year, or tell you how to run/equip your boat (apart from the occasional insistence on back-up communications, etc.). You don't have to pay for any expensive upgrades for safety - AND you get FREE weather routing AND the perceived comfort of being in the group (plus other tchatchkies like free mooring, etc.).

This, my friend, is enticement in every sense of the word (as is clearly shown in those quotes you provided above). The problem comes in those less-experienced skippers who are looking for the SDR to "enable" their safety. It's unequivocally lacking in this area.

Think whatever you want about the SDR, but it's undeniable that the USCG reaped the unfortunate rewards of this generously sponsored laissez-faire approach on November 7-8.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

S/V Dawn Treader - 1989 Hunter Legend 40

Last edited by smackdaddy; 01-01-2014 at 01:58 PM.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #575  
Old 12-31-2013
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: wherever
Posts: 5,256
Thanks: 8
Thanked 17 Times in 16 Posts
Rep Power: 10
xort has a spectacular aura about xort has a spectacular aura about xort has a spectacular aura about
Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Damn, I shopped all over for a Christmas present of a dead horse and missed this beaut.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #576  
Old 12-31-2013
Minnesail's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Minneapolis, MN
Posts: 815
Thanks: 105
Thanked 28 Times in 27 Posts
Rep Power: 2
Minnesail is on a distinguished road
Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Quote:
Originally Posted by xort View Post
Damn, I shopped all over for a Christmas present of a dead horse and missed this beaut.
But it's been here, waiting for you, the whole time.

Isn't that the real meaning of Christmas?
BentSailor likes this.
__________________
Catalina 22
on a starboard tack
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #577  
Old 12-31-2013
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: wherever
Posts: 5,256
Thanks: 8
Thanked 17 Times in 16 Posts
Rep Power: 10
xort has a spectacular aura about xort has a spectacular aura about xort has a spectacular aura about
Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Some here will still be beating it well into the new year!
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #578  
Old 01-02-2014
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: new england
Posts: 1,617
Thanks: 31
Thanked 24 Times in 21 Posts
Rep Power: 2
outbound is on a distinguished road
Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

So let me understand this. You have two of the most qualified, experienced skippers on a boat with two life rafts and every possible piece of safety equipment. They fall off a wave in conditions not as severe as they experienced in the past on a boat which is the exemplar of the highest, strongest design of its type and it breaks in half.
Smack - don't you appreciate great sailors on a good boat can need rescue. How they handle it and if they survive is a reflection on the sailors not some committee. Spend money on meeting ISAF requirements although I don't race but spend more effort on bringing my skill set up to snuff. As the lubbers say "when you stop learning there better be dirt in your face or there soon will be".
__________________
s/v Hippocampus
Outbound 46
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #579  
Old 01-02-2014
smackdaddy's Avatar
Last Man Standing
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 12,951
Thanks: 80
Thanked 72 Times in 66 Posts
Rep Power: 8
smackdaddy is a jewel in the rough smackdaddy is a jewel in the rough smackdaddy is a jewel in the rough
Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Quote:
Originally Posted by outbound View Post
So let me understand this. You have two of the most qualified, experienced skippers on a boat with two life rafts and every possible piece of safety equipment. They fall off a wave in conditions not as severe as they experienced in the past on a boat which is the exemplar of the highest, strongest design of its type and it breaks in half.
Smack - don't you appreciate great sailors on a good boat can need rescue. How they handle it and if they survive is a reflection on the sailors not some committee. Spend money on meeting ISAF requirements although I don't race but spend more effort on bringing my skill set up to snuff. As the lubbers say "when you stop learning there better be dirt in your face or there soon will be".
Of course, I appreciate that. Bernard Stamm is definitely one of the best in the world.

But this example certainly doesn't discount my argument. They had their boat equipped to (at least - and likely beyond) ISAF-equivalent standards...EVEN THOUGH they were the best sailors in the world.

In other words, they fulfilled BOTH standards of preparedness and experience.

To draw the conclusion from your scenario that robust safety standards are not important in a rally...ESPECIALLY when most sailors are FAR, FAR below the experience level of Stamm...makes no sense.

At the end of the day, I totally agree that experience and improved skillset are the ultimate objectives for all of us who sail. But when the SDR throws that out the window with a very low bar to entry for this trip, AND ALSO throws out the safety standards...it's a very bad combo.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

S/V Dawn Treader - 1989 Hunter Legend 40

Last edited by smackdaddy; 01-02-2014 at 12:42 PM.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #580  
Old 01-02-2014
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: new england
Posts: 1,617
Thanks: 31
Thanked 24 Times in 21 Posts
Rep Power: 2
outbound is on a distinguished road
Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Smack you are clearly an intelligent man. It clear you would not attempt a voyage unless you felt you, your crew and your boat were well prepared. I'm working toward voyaging with my wife. She has little past experience on sailboats. Mine is out of date. We are both doing a conditioning program over the winter.We hired Jeff and Jean ( training captains)for a week to get our skill set up to par. The boat is set to cross oceans. We try to be self sufficient and safe. It will take 2+years before we will feel comfortable to " bug out". Knowing you through SN I believe you are of like mind. The folks in SDR are like people. Those who are involved are exposed to safety issues by fellow cruisers and staff. Those who would go ill prepared would probably not join the rally if your program was instituted and go anyway. In the words of Jeff Foxworthy " you can't fix stupid". I think that's the main point of the other side of this discussion.
__________________
s/v Hippocampus
Outbound 46

Last edited by outbound; 01-02-2014 at 02:26 PM.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

 
Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may post attachments
You may edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Sailing fraternity rallies for gutted Carrickfergus club NewsReader News Feeds 0 06-25-2012 09:20 AM
Smooth sailing for Fish, Sharapova rallies NewsReader News Feeds 0 08-30-2011 10:10 PM
Smooth sailing for Fish, Sharapova rallies NewsReader News Feeds 0 08-30-2011 10:10 AM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 06:15 PM.

Add to My Yahoo!         
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.1
(c) Marine.com LLC 2000-2012

The SailNet.com store is owned and operated by a company independent of the SailNet.com forum. You are now leaving the SailNet forum. Click OK to continue or Cancel to return to the SailNet forum.