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  #621  
Old 01-27-2014
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Quote:
Originally Posted by blowinstink View Post
Facts huh . . .. Sounds more like crap to me.

The biggest problem I have is that you don't know a damn thing about what you are talking about. You have not participated in a rally and you have not undertaken an offshore passage. The stream of people who do know *a lot* about these things you simply ignore (or worse you glom onto them as "differing opinions" who you disingenuously claim to be your counterparts).
That's fine if you want to look at it that way. But you have some of your facts wrong. First, though I certainly won't claim to be a Salty Dawg, I have actually undertaken several offshore passages (offshore races and deliveries) - some in fairly sporty conditions. Sure, my total is still a bit shy of 1500 miles and not in the GS, but that's a lot more miles than you just gave me credit for - and apparently far more than is necessary to enter the SDR.

Also, I'm certainly not the only one questioning the SDR. There are several other sailors with far, far more miles than me (and some of my other "counterparts") that are questioning it as well.

If I were the only one disagreeing and questioning, you might have a case. But I'm not. For example, the CG doesn't often single out an event like this in a Marine Safety Alert.

Quote:
Originally Posted by blowinstink View Post
Your "statistics" are not even stated as percentages let alone baseline tested. You are just making stuff up.

Your claim that the standard to participate should be higher is "grounded" in an idiotic premise that participants a) will not go offshore without a rally and b) can be judged by some objective standard (which you haven't articulated).
You go back and forth between claiming that there is some nefarious hidden profit motive and then arguing the opposite -- claiming that the "real problem" is that the rally is free.
The conclusions you've made above are yours - not mine. For example, I've always held that the bar for the SDR, for this trip, is too low. Jon has stated the same in this thread. I've just said that it should be higher...especially due to the combination of factors I've listed in my post above. Beyond that bar, whether a) happens or not doesn't really matter in this context (and I certainly haven't said that). Furthermore, I've not specifically laid out what b) needs to be because I don't really know (although I think the Marine Safety Alert has a pretty good list).

On the free thing, the SDR absolutely has a financial incentive to get as many boats as possible into the rally. It is sponsor supported, the financial value of which relies on participation. Nothing nefarious or even hidden about that at all. At the same time, BECAUSE it is free to participants (combined with the other factors I've listed above) it presents a much stronger incentive over other rallies that have a better combination of factors regarding safety.

So, I'm not moving back and forth at all. Both of those things are true.

Quote:
Originally Posted by blowinstink View Post
You have no basis to assert that the standards you claim are lacking have *anything* to do with the troubles some participants encountered -- in fact everything we know suggests otherwise.
I think what you're saying here is what Jon has held forth...that ISAF-based standards and inspections such as those with the C1500, etc. would likely not have prevented the problems these boats faced (steering issues, rigging issues, etc.). Maybe, maybe not. How can you know that? Remember, you're the guy saying this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by blowinstink View Post
Your "statistics" are not even stated as percentages let alone baseline tested. You are just making stuff up.
So what are the numbers here?

Again, I'm looking at the overall combination that is unique to the SDR. You (like Jon with his rally comparisons) are focusing on one thing at a time and trying to disprove that the SDR combo had anything to do with anything. I just don't agree with that approach. I think the combo is relatively dangerous.

Now, when I do make the literal statement that, "ISAF-based rules and safety inspections would have categorically prevented ALL of the problems in the SDR!" - you can call me on it. But I haven't said that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by blowinstink View Post
There is no shortage of dumb sheet on the sailing forums and it is mostly irrelevant or entertaining. The only reason your posts piss me off is that there might just be someone somewhere who actually has some authority who reads you crap and acts upon it. And you have neither sailed offshore nor participated in a rally and you are making all of these assertions about rally participants -- which almost all of the rally participants (and not inconsequentially -- although you seem to miss this -- other offshore sailors)
Well, again, the last part is still not correct. And I certainly don't discount other very experienced off-shore sailors (Jon included) who think that the bar to the SDR is too low. Sure, I disagree with other things, but that's the nature of discussing something complicated like this. We can't all agree simply to make it more relaxing.

The CG has already acted on this with its Marine Safety Alert. And I certainly don't think it was because of my brilliant posts here on SN. Where it goes from here, we'll see. The SDR is still supposed to have their review board soon.

Quote:
Originally Posted by blowinstink View Post
Despite all that, you just remain belligerent. That is a shame. You lack the qualifications and the facts to advocate for restricting other people's choices regarding rallies -- particularly over their objections.
More than anything - I think this is what you and others are pissed about. I'm advocating regulation. That pisses A LOT of people off. And I'm okay with that. It doesn't change my stance. I'm able to discuss it without getting angry - and provide the reasons why I think it's necessary in cases like this. That's all I can do. If it makes you angry - then I'm sorry about that. But...

Quote:
Originally Posted by blowinstink View Post
Actually SD, maybe you should reconsider (among other things) the value in being "nice".
What exactly does "being nice" mean to you?
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Last edited by smackdaddy; 01-27-2014 at 11:40 PM.
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  #622  
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post

For example, I've always held that the bar for the SDR, for this trip, is too low. Jon has stated the same in this thread.
Hmmm, perhaps you can refresh my memory... Where did I say that, exactly?
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  #623  
Old 01-27-2014
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
Hmmm, perhaps you can refresh my memory... Where did I say that, exactly?
Sure. Hang on a mo and I'll grab it...
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  #624  
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Here you go...from when we were discussing the experience bar for the SDR...

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
If a newb came on SN saying "I don't have much off-shore experience, but I'm planning to leave from Newport and head down to the BVIs in November, what should I think about here?"

Would you really say...

"If you're going to go - take it seriously. What you don't know you'll learn, what will be will be . . .."
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
Well, here's what I would say:

Don't do it... A newbie without much offshore experience has no business sailing his own boat from Newport direct to the Caribbean in November...
I think you nailed it. I wish the SDR agreed with you.
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  #625  
Old 01-28-2014
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
More than anything - I think this is what you and others are pissed about. I'm advocating regulation. That pisses A LOT of people off. And I'm okay with that. It doesn't change my stance. I'm able to discuss it without getting angry - and provide the reasons why I think it's necessary in cases like this. That's all I can do. If it makes you angry - then I'm sorry about that. But...
Angry? I just think your uninformed opinion is a menace. As far as I am concerned you have no business having a say in this decision. Numerous people have pointed out the flaws in your oddly strident claims . . .. When I hear anyone who's opinion I respect take up you cause, I'll happily rethink that. Until then . . ..
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  #626  
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Quote:
Originally Posted by blowinstink View Post
Angry? I just think your uninformed opinion is a menace. As far as I am concerned you have no business having a say in this decision. Numerous people have pointed out the flaws in your oddly strident claims . . .. When I hear anyone who's opinion I respect take up you cause, I'll happily rethink that. Until then . . ..
Well, I may not have a say in any decisions, but I have an opinion - just as you do.

You didn't answer my question about what you think "being nice" means. I'm really curious about that.
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
Here you go...from when we were discussing the experience bar for the SDR...

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
If a newb came on SN saying "I don't have much off-shore experience, but I'm planning to leave from Newport and head down to the BVIs in November, what should I think about here?"

Would you really say...

"If you're going to go - take it seriously. What you don't know you'll learn, what will be will be . . .."
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
Well, here's what I would say:

Don't do it... A newbie without much offshore experience has no business sailing his own boat from Newport direct to the Caribbean in November...
I think you nailed it. I wish the SDR agreed with you.
LMFAO! Damn, I'm not sure which of the following you need to do first, but here's the order I would suggest...

(1) Start with a reading comprehension refresher course :-)

(2) Read Don Street's advice on the passage from the NE, and his recommendation to bypass Bermuda, which I've already linked to at least once before in this thread:

Don Street's Sailing Routes to the Caribbean | Cruising World

(3) Get yourself a copy of DM 17 - Great Circle Sailing Chart of the North Atlantic Ocean, and study it carefully:



Because, it's obvious you have NO appreciation for the fact that sailing direct to the Islands from Newport in November is a COMPLETELY different proposition than the routes sailed by the SDR and 1500, departing from the Chesapeake Bay Entrance...



But, how you've managed to infer that I am equating "A newbie without much offshore experience" with the SDR's stated aim of "a rally comprised of blue water sailors who have completed at least one blue water passage." is FAR beyond my ability to imagine... :-)

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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

I think Jon's reiteration of the Don Street advice is really valuable -- as is the associated understanding of the fall weather patterns. There is a lot of attention to these issues because the rallies (and so many others) leave at that time of year. I am wondering whether there are similarly well developed views on other common passages (NE to Bermuda -- or NE to Azores in the late spring / early summer for instance). I keep going back to Les Weatheritt and Atlantic Crossings. Other favorite sources? Any good SN threads?
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
LMFAO! Damn, I'm not sure which of the following you need to do first, but here's the order I would suggest...

(1) Start with a reading comprehension refresher course :-)

(2) Read Don Street's advice on the passage from the NE, and his recommendation to bypass Bermuda, which I've already linked to at least once before in this thread:

Don Street's Sailing Routes to the Caribbean | Cruising World

(3) Get yourself a copy of DM 17 - Great Circle Sailing Chart of the North Atlantic Ocean, and study it carefully:



Because, it's obvious you have NO appreciation for the fact that sailing direct to the Islands from Newport in November is a COMPLETELY different proposition than the routes sailed by the SDR and 1500, departing from the Chesapeake Bay Entrance...



But, how you've managed to infer that I am equating "A newbie without much offshore experience" with the SDR's stated aim of "a rally comprised of blue water sailors who have completed at least one blue water passage." is FAR beyond my ability to imagine... :-)
My, you are a slippery one.

Okay - let's set the context for the above once more (for the purpose of reading comprehension). As I have been doing from the very beginning of this thread, I was talking about the SDR's low bar of experience (especially for this trip at this time of year). Stink said the following:

Quote:
Originally Posted by blowinstink View Post
The more meaningful discussion around the rallys is less about Rally A vs Rally B and more about what sorts of things that aspiring offshore sailors (individually) should be thinking about in advance of their departure. Where they leave from (Newport vs Norfolk vs Beaufort) is a huge under-discussed point; what experience level they feel is appropriate is another (you can preach hard rules but you may as well howl at the moon); what equipment another (my boat is smaller than the smallest in either rally . . . what does or should that mean?).
I agreed with him, I thought that was important to the discussion. But I also thought the experience level was just as (if not more) important. So, to keep the discussion focused on the SDR's experience bar, I posed the general question (based on Stink's scenario) because I figured there was no way people around here would advise a relatively inexperienced sailor/poster to head out from the northern east coast toward the Carib in November:

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
If a newb came on SN saying "I don't have much off-shore experience, but I'm planning to leave from Newport and head down to the BVIs in November, what should I think about here?"
And you answered thusly:

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
A newbie without much offshore experience has no business sailing his own boat from Newport direct to the Caribbean in November...
And now you're pulling out charts and maps and parading Don Street around on a pony to say that the SDR has it right, simply because it departs Hampton?

Okay, then let's get more direct....

Drawing from his post above, here is what Jon Eisberg is SPECIFICALLY saying to any sailor/poster out there who's thinking about a passage from the northern east coast to the Caribbean in November:

1. A "single bluewater passage" is plenty of experience. Go for it.
2. Leave from Hampton (not Newport) and you'll be fine. It's COMPLETELY different*.


*"Even though Route 2 on that little map takes me directly through that fluffy orange blob?", says I. "No biggie.", says he.

++++++++++

Like I said earlier, based on what I know of you and your critiques on these forums of those who go out under/unprepared, your above advice seems a bit strange. (Feel free to massage it. I want to make sure I'm getting it right.)

At least you're now on the record saying the SDR is doing it exactly right.
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Read the BWS article and they make no big deal out of troubles. Can see multiple reasons why this may be. Still think it speaks to our American heritage and the American sailors mentality. Other posters in other threads and this remind us they must put up with licensure and permits to sail their boats. Need for various certificates restrict their ability to cruise. This seems to apply to the EU and Oceana. As Americans we don't face those restrictions. Rather economics restrict us ?Can you get insurance for the passage in absence of documented skilled crew and you may be required to have a certain number of crew ?Are you rich enough to self insure. ?Are you risk aversive and to what degree. Did you choose R.I. to BVI or routes 2,3,or 4. Are you going to do the thornless path or Mona Pass. In short we are free to go where we want, when we want, and how we want. We can be in a rally or not. Even in the rally we can leave when we choose. These freedoms are precious and make us uniquely American. When I was moored in Marion Ma nearby couple would just up and leave for BVI in their Hylas when they thought time was right. Just the two of them by theirselves. We chatted asked how they got to that point. They said "we just do it". Our antecedents and friends have died for that freedom . I'm not prepared to give up on the concept of citizens being free to make their own choices. Sure buyer beware and Smack if you don't want to do the SDR good on you- your choice. I'm still contemplating it. Wife wants us to do Bahamas first and put it off a year. We'll see. That's the fun we have the choice.
We accept some level of personal responsibility and view the captain ( owner) as fully legally responsible for the safety of his (her) craft and all the souls upon her.
If faced with the choice of having the freedom for foolish people doing foolish things to themselves or living in a nanny state where "authorities" restrict my freedom of action as a true American I choose freedom.
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