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  #631  
Old 01-28-2014
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
My, you are a slippery one.

So, to keep the discussion focused on the SDR's experience bar, I posed the general question (based on Stink's scenario) because I figured there was no way people around here would advise a relatively inexperienced sailor/poster to head out from the northern east coast toward the Carib in November:

And you answered thusly:
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
A newbie without much offshore experience has no business sailing his own boat from Newport direct to the Caribbean in November...
And now you're pulling out charts and maps and parading Don Street around on a pony to say that the SDR has it right, simply because it departs Hampton?
Actually, I have long advocated here, and elsewhere, a departure from the Chesapeake, or south of Hatteras, for those sailing 'typical' cruising boats, and have cited Street's advice numerous times, well before last fall's SDR.

I believe this was my initial post on the subject, posted roughly 2 years before last fall's rally season, in reply to the tragedy that occurred in that year's NARC Rally:

Maine Sailor Washed Overboard off Bermuda

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
Okay, then let's get more direct....

Drawing from his post above, here is what Jon Eisberg is SPECIFICALLY saying to any sailor/poster out there who's thinking about a passage from the northern east coast to the Caribbean in November:

1. A "single bluewater passage" is plenty of experience. Go for it.
2. Leave from Hampton (not Newport) and you'll be fine. It's COMPLETELY different*.
I am saying NO SUCH THING, of course... How you've reached either of those conclusions from anything I've posted is completely beyond me, as I suspect it would be for anyone else who might still be following this thread...

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
*"Even though Route 2 on that little map takes me directly through that fluffy orange blob?", says I. "No biggie.", says he.
Ahhh, so now we have someone who has never (to the best of my knowledge) sailed off the East Coast, second-guessing the guy who wrote STREET'S TRANSATLANTIC CROSSING GUIDE almost 4 decades ago, and has done the N-S passage between the E coast of the US and Canada 40 times, huh? Hmmm, not so sure I'd be too anxious to add my name to the list right below those of the crew of BE GOOD TOO, as the most recent sailors to have dismissed or questioned Don Street's advice...

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
Like I said earlier, based on what I know of you and your critiques on these forums of those who go out under/unprepared, your above advice seems a bit strange. (Feel free to massage it. I want to make sure I'm getting it right.)

At least you're now on the record saying the SDR is doing it exactly right.
WRONG, yet again... Only in your own imagination, and requiring a leap of logic as spectacular in its lunacy and resultant failure as Evel Knievel's attempt to jump the Snake River Canyon... :-)

Seriously, your tendency towards hyperbole, your vivid 'imagination' and continuous miscasting of what others write, your lack of first hand knowledge about certain aspects of this subject, all coupled with your relentless desperation to prove yourself 'right' in this discussion, really does make it all but impossible to pursue any sort of constructive dialogue, here...

Last edited by JonEisberg; 01-28-2014 at 03:59 PM.
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  #632  
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Hey guys?
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  #633  
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Smack- Assume you would leave from Texas to get to BVI and would do the southern coasts of Hispaniola etc. Multiple boats have been lost or gotten into serious troubles especially with land falls. I don't get your argument. If you did that trip you would be assuming some level of risk. You seem a stand up guy and would view the risk as yours and yours alone. ?Why is it different here? SDR doesn't say in any of their paperwork they are assuming any of the risks of the voyage. They may make suggestions but you are deciding to leave or not and when, you decide on your crew, how you prep your boat. This is just like any voyage. Why are you putting things on them that are not theirs?
Jon has more experience then us both put together. I respect his opinion. But if he sails on my boat before leaving he and I need to decide who is captain. If its him then he is responsible for our safety. He does the routing, he decides when to depart, he reads the gribs and 500mb files.If its me then I am on the hook for those decisions. I would be foolish to ignore Jon and would like to think I would not do anything that would cause him concern. Still if I'm captain its my and only my responsibility. If we are in SDR its still the captains not the rally's responsibility. In fact I can't image a scenario where it would be the Rally's responsibility the way the rally is set up. That's one of its appeals. Jon says he would choose a different path. Read that and Street and there is much merit to their opinions. Now that is something I would like to hear more about.
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  #634  
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

I absolutely used hyperbole. You're right. But I did so to clarify your standpoint...as follows...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
I am saying NO SUCH THING, of course... How you've reached either of those conclusions from anything I've posted is completely beyond me, as I suspect it would be for anyone else who might still be following this thread...
Good. I'm glad that's crystal clear. Because, based on everything I know about you, it would mystify me if you were saying that a single bluewater passage was enough experience for this trip at this time of year (even leaving from Hampton).

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
Ahhh, so now we have someone who has never (to the best of my knowledge) sailed off the East Coast, second-guessing the guy who wrote STREET'S TRANSATLANTIC CROSSING GUIDE almost 4 decades ago, and has done the N-S passage between the E coast of the US and Canada 40 times, huh? Hmmm, not so sure I'd be too anxious to add my name to the list right below those of the crew of BE GOOD TOO, as the most recent sailors to have dismissed or questioned Don Street's advice...
I'm not second-guessing him at all. In fact, as I've said many times in this thread, I wouldn't do any of those routes in November until I have A LOT more experience than I do now.

I BELIEVE WHAT YOU GUYS ARE SAYING - that is a big reason I wouldn't do it...and I certainly wouldn't advocate it for less experienced sailors.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
WRONG, yet again... Only in your own imagination, and requiring a leap of logic as spectacular in its lunacy and resultant failure as Evel Knievel's attempt to jump the Snake River Canyon... :-)
I saw video of that jump. I really thought he'd bit it when he rolled off the ledge.

Again, hyperbole aside, I kind of figured you didn't think the SDR was "doing it right" in these areas. But you've been pretty squishy on this. Now we know.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
Seriously, your tendency towards hyperbole, your vivid 'imagination' and continuous miscasting of what others write, your lack of first hand knowledge about certain aspects of this subject, all coupled with your relentless desperation to prove yourself 'right' in this discussion, really does make it all but impossible to pursue any sort of constructive dialogue, here...
Like I admitted above - yes, this was an exercise in hyperbole. But without a very clear statement about where you stand on whether the SDR is doing it right or not, it's hard to pursue any sort of constructive dialogue. That's what I was trying to get to. You know where I stand, and I think I now have a better idea where you stand. And it doesn't seem we're all that far apart...and at least not Snake River Canyon apart.
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Last edited by smackdaddy; 01-29-2014 at 09:56 AM.
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  #635  
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Quote:
Originally Posted by outbound View Post
Smack- Assume you would leave from Texas to get to BVI and would do the southern coasts of Hispaniola etc. Multiple boats have been lost or gotten into serious troubles especially with land falls. I don't get your argument. If you did that trip you would be assuming some level of risk. You seem a stand up guy and would view the risk as yours and yours alone. ?Why is it different here? SDR doesn't say in any of their paperwork they are assuming any of the risks of the voyage. They may make suggestions but you are deciding to leave or not and when, you decide on your crew, how you prep your boat. This is just like any voyage. Why are you putting things on them that are not theirs?
This is the crux of the debate Out. Great question. The difference is that if I decide to do the trip and assume all the risk and responsibility on my own - that is my decision, and my decision alone. I, and I alone, determine whether I'm ready or not.

In the case of a rally such as the SDR, it is an outside entity stepping into that equation through their establishing a bar of experience required to take the trip, the perceived risk-reducing benefits of the rally (free weather routing, added experience of others, safety in numbers, etc.), the help in planning, the psychology of trust in an experienced organization to provide better collective decision-making than doing it just on your own...etc.

Additionally, when there is financial incentive for that entity which is reliant on number of participants - everything in the decision process gets much, much cloudier than making those calls for yourself and yourself only.

As I've just told Jon, I TOTALLY believe him when he says it's a dicey proposition to sail that route in November - and I TOTALLY agree that relative newbs (like me) have no business being out there at that time of year. However, the SDR says I can do it based on their experience requirements. As a matter of fact, I'm a veteran cruiser based on their standard for entry.

To understand my position on this, all you have to do is look at the actions taken by the NARC, who raised their standard of experience for entry and participant boat size due to their past problems:

Quote:
After last year we are recommending smaller boats with less experienced crew to head down to the Chesapeake Bay to depart with the caribbean 1500.
Where is Hank directing these newer sailors and why? The C1500 has all the stuff the SDR does not - all of which is VERY beneficial to newer sailors.

Quote:
Originally Posted by outbound View Post
Jon has more experience then us both put together. I respect his opinion. But if he sails on my boat before leaving he and I need to decide who is captain. If its him then he is responsible for our safety. He does the routing, he decides when to depart, he reads the gribs and 500mb files.If its me then I am on the hook for those decisions. I would be foolish to ignore Jon and would like to think I would not do anything that would cause him concern. Still if I'm captain its my and only my responsibility. If we are in SDR its still the captains not the rally's responsibility. In fact I can't image a scenario where it would be the Rally's responsibility the way the rally is set up. That's one of its appeals. Jon says he would choose a different path. Read that and Street and there is much merit to their opinions. Now that is something I would like to hear more about.
This is another nuanced point - and a very good question. I'm not in any way trying to place culpability on the SDR. That's for the attorneys.

I AM saying that the way the SDR factors are now combined (I listed those above) - is, I think, a dangerous cocktail.

Just as Hank of the NARC has apparently done by pushing these less-experienced sailors to the C1500 (where there is more oversight) - the SDR would do very well to simply increase their bar to entry so that the fleet they assemble already know everything you list above, and, more importantly, know exactly what they're in for.

It really is an easy fix.
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Last edited by smackdaddy; 01-29-2014 at 09:57 AM.
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  #636  
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

To summarize:

There are two rallies that encourage sailors to go into the North Atlantic in November, one has higher safety standards than the other but neither meet the standards recently suggested by the USCG or US Sailing for West Coast racing.

Going off shore in November, to a schedule, can have serious consequences beyond the abilities of the crews to handle.

I have no problems with individuals taking risk but they should either not call the USCG for help or they should reimburse the USCG if they and their boats do not meet the standards recommended by the USCG.

My boat meets those standards, including the ability to steer when the rudder falls off, but I never sail to an arbitrary schedule.

Smack should take a course in writing only what is necessary and doing it with brevity.
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  #637  
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Why on earth would I take a writing course - which imposes an arbitrary schedule and does not adhere to USCG standards?
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  #638  
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

I hesitate to re-enter this fray at this late date, but do so to make two observations:
If you wish to sail from the east coast to the Carribean for wintering over, you should tell your insurance man to take a flying leap and plan your departure based on real weather conditions and if that means an October departure, then so be it.
Also, if you so wish to make this voyage, choose the departure port that sets you up for the best weather window, which would be farther south that the mouth of the Chesapeake.
If all this means not being part of a regatta/rally then tough chalupas for them. You are going to be going it alone anyway, so why get sucked into the group grope thing?
John
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  #639  
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yorksailor View Post
There are two rallies that encourage sailors to go into the North Atlantic in November, one has higher safety standards than the other but neither meet the standards recently suggested by the USCG or US Sailing for West Coast racing.
There are three or four depending on how you count: The Salty Dawg Rally, the Caribbean 1500, the Caribbean-Bahamas, and the NARC.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yorksailor View Post
Going off shore in November, to a schedule, can have serious consequences beyond the abilities of the crews to handle.
Which is the point Jon and I keep making - safety is less about "safety" equipment and more about the crews.

The SDR and the NARC are the rallies that have experience requirements of any sort as far as I am aware.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yorksailor View Post
My boat meets those standards, including the ability to steer when the rudder falls off, but I never sail to an arbitrary schedule.
Have you tried you auxiliary steering offshore? How about if the rudder didn't fall off but is instead jammed full over?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ccriders View Post
Also, if you so wish to make this voyage, choose the departure port that sets you up for the best weather window, which would be farther south that the mouth of the Chesapeake.
If all this means not being part of a regatta/rally then tough chalupas for them.
You can be part of the SDR and leave from anywhere you want.
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  #640  
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

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Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post

Where is Hank directing these newer sailors and why? The C1500 has all the stuff the SDR does not - all of which is VERY beneficial to newer sailors.

Just as Hank of the NARC has apparently done by pushing these less-experienced sailors to the C1500 (where there is more oversight) - the SDR would do very well to simply increase their bar to entry so that the fleet they assemble already know everything you list above, and, more importantly, know exactly what they're in for.
You're a funny guy... :-) You really don't have a freakin' CLUE what goes on with these rallies, do you?

Yeah, the folks that run the Caribbean 1500 sure did a hell of a job educating this skipper about EXACTLY WHAT HE MIGHT BE IN FOR on that passage, alright... I'll bet he passed their ISAF-based Safety Inspection with flying colors :-)





Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
It really is an easy fix.
Well, someone's gotta ask, I suppose...

So, what's your simple fix?

Last edited by JonEisberg; 01-29-2014 at 07:17 PM.
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