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  #641  
Old 01-29-2014
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

So I guess you think Hank is doing those newer sailors in smaller boats a disservice? Maybe you should ping him.

You're getting things mixed up again. I said the SDR should raise it's bar for entry so that the participants already have the experience and education to know what they're getting in for.

I have no idea what that photo is - nor the story behind it - so I can't really say one way or the other.
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Last edited by smackdaddy; 01-29-2014 at 08:39 PM.
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  #642  
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post

You're getting things mixed up again. I said the SDR should raise it's bar for entry so that the participants already have the experience and education to know what they're getting in for.
By their own definition, the SDR is for "bluewater sailors who have completed at least one bluewater passage"... I think most reasonable people would consider that anyone who fits the definition "blue water sailor" would already have the experience to know what they're getting in for...

Of course, without the ability to review all of the applications submitted to the SDR, or to have any idea who the organizers might have turned away, it's impossible to know with any real precision exactly where their bar may have been set... But, that sure hasn't stopped you from your incessant braying that it was set too low... :-)

So, then, where would you place your Imaginary "Bar for Entry", precisely?

Not to mention, have you already forgotten that I've already shown that "Lack of Experience" was unlikely to have been the defining factor aboard the following boats that experienced the most notable difficulties last November? How would your more stringent "bar to entry" likely have alleviated any of these incidents? Do you believe it should have been set high enough to have made the owner of ZULU, for example, ineligible to meet the entry requirements?

ZULU - The Alden 54 that suffered the loss of her rudder... Her owner is a member of the New York, Bristol, and Great Harbor Yacht Clubs. She had previously completed the brutal 2011 NARC rally, with no issues... Verdict: "Inexperience" not likely to be a significant issue...

JAMMIN' - the Catalina 42 that also lost her rudder... These folks have been full-time cruisers since 2007, starting from the West Coast... They had made the trip back and forth to the Islands a couple of times before...
Verdict: "Lack of experience" not bloody likely to have been an issue...

LIKE DOLPHINS - a Catana 47 that was dismasted... Her owners are from freakin' BELGIUM, so they have at least one Transatlantic crossing under their belts...
Verdict: I doubt their dismasting was due to a lack of experience...

NYAPA - the Hans Christian 38 also dismasted... This year was to be their 3rd time out cruising for an extended period, their first time out was 25 years ago after they were first married... 2nd cruise was a 5 year affair with their 3 daughters, starting on the West coast, thru the Canal and most of the Caribbean, and ending at home in New England, where they worked to replenish the cruising kitty, and refit for another extended cruise...
Verdict: "Lack of experience"??? Seriously???

WINGS - the C-38 abandoned after being 'disabled'... Another full-time cruising couple, their home port was Duluth, MN - you know, on that puny bathtub called Lake freakin' SUPERIOR ? They had already made it down to the Bahamas, spent at least a year without ever coming alongside a dock, then had returned to the Chesapeake, where they planned to sail with the SDR...
Verdict: Information on this couple is the hardest to obtain, but I it certainly does not appear they would fit anyone's reasonable definition of "Inexperienced"...

BRAVEHEART - the Tartan 4600 that diverted to Beaufort after a crewmember suffered a broken arm...Her owners were veterans of previous Caribbean 1500s, as long ago as 2006...
Verdict: "Inexperienced"? Yeah, OK, if you say so...
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Last edited by JonEisberg; 01-29-2014 at 09:37 PM.
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  #643  
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

I'm now in a 12-Step Brevity Program with York - so I'll be "brief"...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
By their own definition, the SDR is for "bluewater sailors who have completed at least one bluewater passage"... I think most reasonable people would consider that anyone who fits the definition "blue water sailor" would already have the experience to know what they're getting in for...
In the 5+ years I've been on this forum, no one has been able to satisfactorily define what "bluewater" really means. And I think most of the sailors on this forum - many of them very, very experienced - are pretty reasonable dudes. Whatever it means, I think EVERYONE (including you from what I recall) is in agreement that one is a very small number.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
Of course, without the ability to review all of the applications submitted to the SDR, or to have any idea who the organizers might have turned away, it's impossible to know with any real precision exactly where their bar may have been set... But, that sure hasn't stopped you from your incessant braying that it was set too low... :-)

So, then, where would you place your Imaginary "Bar for Entry", precisely?
Higher than it currently is. A place to start might be those who've skippered their own boat on this trip X times (like those ex-C1500ers who founded the SDR).

Hank, or even the CG, might be able to help you out with more detail.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
Not to mention, have you already forgotten that I've already shown that "Lack of Experience" was unlikely to have been the defining factor aboard the following boats that experienced the most notable difficulties last November?
Allow me to point you back to York's post above.
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Last edited by smackdaddy; 01-29-2014 at 11:20 PM.
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  #644  
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Jon, I took a harder look at that pic you put up and compared it to S/V Sequitur (the Hunter 49 that sailed the Horn in F10/11 conditions). They do look similarly outfitted:





So what was your point?
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Last edited by smackdaddy; 01-29-2014 at 11:31 PM.
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  #645  
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg

Of course, without the ability to review all of the applications submitted to the SDR, or to have any idea who the organizers might have turned away, it's impossible to know with any real precision exactly where their bar may have been set... But, that sure hasn't stopped you from your incessant braying that it was set too low... :-)

So, then, where would you place your Imaginary "Bar for Entry", precisely?
Higher than it currently is. A place to start might be those who've skippered their own boat on this trip X times (like those ex-C1500-ers who founded the SDR).
I see... So, then, those folks on LIKE DOLPHINS who sailed across the Atlantic, or the Brits who likewise sailed across the Pond, and completed the 2013 SDR aboard the smallest boat in the entire fleet, would not have met the entry requirements...

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
Hank might be able to help you out with more detail.
Hank's probably got more pressing issues on his plate at the moment, than be the one to be deciding who should or should not be permitted to venture out into the N Atlantic in Janu... uhhh, I mean November... :-)

So, then - in summary:

The 6 SAR incidents in last fall's SDR were a clear indication the rally has a 'problem' that must be addressed...

The 'problem' is the result of an excessively "Low Bar" of experience, and the lack of an ISAF Safety Inspection...

However, you are unable to produce ANY EVIDENCE WHATSOEVER that said SAR incidents were due to a lack of experience of the crews (actually, the 'facts' cited above would appear to indicate quite the opposite), or to the lack of a pre-rally safety inspection...

Ergo,, the SDR needs to "Raise the Bar" for future participation, and institute safety inspections and more rigorous "training"...

Have I got that about right? :-)

In addition, 2 out of over 100 SDR rally boats were abandoned last fall... However, on January 14, 2 boats were also abandoned on the same day, off the mid-Atlantic coast... Now, we don't know for certain how many other sailing yachts might have been offshore in that area on that date, but my hunch would be a number not much greater than TWO...

So, there we likely have a percentage close to 100% of boats along the route to the Islands being abandoned... My math skills are pretty rudimentary, but that seems to me to be a rate of failure considerably higher than that of the SDR fleet, no?

So, what's your "easy fix" to that little conundrum? :-)
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  #646  
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
Hank's probably got more pressing issues on his plate at the moment, than be the one to be deciding who should or should not be permitted to venture out into the N Atlantic in Janu... uhhh, I mean November... :-)
You don't really read this stuff do you? Hank already has:

NARC Regulations

If you want to taunt and/or question Hank on that based on the Alpha 42 thing - go ahead. You seem to be doing a good job of that kind of thing based on Charles Doane's Sailfeed Story:

Quote:
I have been most surprised by the comments made by Jon Eisberg, an experienced bluewater sailor I previously had some respect for.
As for the rest of the stuff in your post - however you need to put it together to understand it is fine by me. I think I've been very clear for many pages now.
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Last edited by smackdaddy; 01-30-2014 at 12:09 AM.
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  #647  
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
Jon, I took a harder look at that pic you put up and compared it to S/V Sequitur (the Hunter 49 that sailed the Horn in F10/11 conditions). They do look similarly outfitted:





So what was your point?
My point is that - in my opinion - the manner in which that tender has been stowed is most definitely NOT seamanlike, and would seem to indicate that skipper had little idea of the possible conditions he might encounter on that trip...

If you can't spot the salient distinction between that arrangement, and Michael's, well... I doubt I can help you see the light... :-)

btw, I mean no disrespect to Michael, I am in awe of his accomplishment, and a voyage sailed in such an exemplary manner...

But your repeated claim that he rounded Cape Horn in F 10-11 conditions is simply not true, and seems typical of your tendency to believe if you just keep repeating one of your 'facts' over, and over, and over again... perhaps that will some day make such an assertion true... :-)
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

I said "sailed the Horn" - just for you (read it again).

You're welcome to turn your nose up at Michael's approach of coming out of the channels around Ushuaia (if I recall) in relatively moderate conditions to do his round the Horn shot, then coming back in, then back out continuing around toward Isla de los Estados and getting hit with those F10-11 conditions in that area (still the Horn in my book).

As for me, I UNEQUIVOCALLY give it to him.
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
You don't really read this stuff do you? Hank already has:

NARC Regulations
LMAO! Ahhh, yes... FINALLY we have a rally organizer who has stateed with absolute clarity precisely where the bar should be set:

Quote:
The rally is open to any seaworhty boat with an experienced skipper with a good crew.
Damn, who knew you didn't even have to be a "Bluewater Sailor" to make it into the NARC? :-)

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
If you want to taunt and/or question Hank on that based on the Alpha 42 thing - go ahead. You seem to be doing a good job of that kind of thing based on Charles Doane's Sailfeed Story:
Yeah, frankly I was a bit surprised Charlie singled me out like that...(I'm guessing it was probably my dredging up his old post regarding WOLFHOUND that might have gotten under his skin :-)) Hell, I thought my take on the whole deal was fairly measured, and I did refrain from second-guessing their final decision to abandon. As the Comments have poured in, I think mine in retrospect seem pretty reasonable, and relatively tame, compared to many...

I posted a lengthy response to Charlie over a week ago, but for some reason was unable to post it to his blog... If you're interested, it can be seen at Sailfeed... Be forewarned: It's pretty long... :-)

BE GOOD TOO: Answering Critics | Sailfeed

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
I said "sailed the Horn" - just for you (read it again).

You're welcome to turn your nose up at Michael's approach of coming out of the channels around Ushuaia (if I recall) in relatively moderate conditions to do his round the Horn shot, then coming back in, then back out continuing around toward Isla de los Estados and getting hit with those F10-11 conditions in that area (still the Horn in my book).

As for me, I UNEQUIVOCALLY give it to him.
I'm not turning my nose up at Michael, at all... That's the way the great majority of sailors see Cape Horn these days, after all... I'm in awe of anyone who simply makes it down there, to begin with...

But if I recall correctly, the experience SEQUITUR had with the big weather was in the lee of the Falklands, on their approach to Stanley...Still a wild place to be in such weather, no question - but it's not the same as being off Cape Horn, in a F11 Violent Storm...

Last edited by JonEisberg; 01-30-2014 at 01:14 AM.
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
LMAO! Ahhh, yes... FINALLY we have a rally organizer who has stateed with absolute clarity precisely where the bar should be set:

Damn, who knew you didn't even have to be a "Bluewater Sailor" to make it into the NARC? :-)
Good lord. This is like kindergarten. Here is all the text copied from the NARC Regulations page I linked to:

Quote:
NARC Rules and Regulations

The rally is open to any professional delivery or nfull time crew.

The rally is open to any seaworhty boat with an experienced skipper with a good crew.

Amatuer sailors should contact Hank to see if they qualify.

After last year we are recommending smaller boats with less experienced crew to head down to the Chesapeake Bay to depart with the caribbean 1500.
Again, if you don't like Hank's approach - take it up with him. But at least be honest about what's there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
But if I recall correctly, the experience SEQUITUR had with the big weather was in the lee of the Falklands, on their approach to Stanley...Still a wild place to be in such weather, no question - but it's not the same as being off Cape Horn, in a F11 Violent Storm...
Okay.
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