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  #651  
Old 01-30-2014
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
Good lord. This is like kindergarten. Here is all the text copied from the NARC Regulations page I linked to:

Quote:
NARC Rules and Regulations

The rally is open to any professional delivery or nfull time crew.

The rally is open to any seaworhty boat with an experienced skipper with a good crew.

Amatuer sailors should contact Hank to see if they qualify.

After last year we are recommending smaller boats with less experienced crew to head down to the Chesapeake Bay to depart with the caribbean 1500.
Again, if you don't like Hank's approach - take it up with him. But at least be honest about what's there.
If you were being honest about what's there, you'd admit that Hank's "Bar for Entry" to the NARC is even MORE ambiguous and loosely defined than those for either the SDR, or the Caribbean 1500...

Help us out here... Precisely what does he mean by "experienced skipper", or "a good crew", or "smaller", or "less experienced"?

You know, so we know EXACTLY how much higher the SDR needs to raise their bar, to achieve your "simple fix"... :-)

Last edited by JonEisberg; 01-30-2014 at 12:44 AM.
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  #652  
Old 01-30-2014
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
If you were being honest about what's there, you'd admit that Hank's "Bar for Entry" to the NARC is even MORE ambiguous and loosely defined than those for either the SDR, or the Caribbean 1500...

Help us out here... Precisely what does he mean by "experienced skipper", or "a good crew", or "smaller", or "less experienced"?

You know, so we know EXACTLY how much higher the SDR needs to raise their bar, to achieve your "simple fix"... :-)
You're asking the wrong guy. Only Hank knows that. And he clearly states on that page that he'll make the call if you have any questions on that as an "amateur sailor".

But, at least you're finally acknowledging one of the main problems I've been talking about since the beginning - nebulous standards like "one bluewater passage" being a real issue.

Again, for the hundredth time, one simple fix for the SDR, in my view, is to significantly raise the bar of experience for entry so that the lack of support in the other four areas I've mentioned isn't so much of an issue. There are likely several others.

I really can't explain any more simply for you.
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Last edited by smackdaddy; 01-30-2014 at 10:32 AM.
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  #653  
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

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Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
But, at least you're finally acknowledging one of the main problems I've been talking about since the beginning - nebulous standards like "one bluewater passage" being a real issue.

Again, for the hundredth time, the simple fix for the SDR, in my view, is to significantly raise the bar of experience for entry so that the lack of support in the other four areas I've mentioned isn't so much of an issue.

I really can't explain any more simply for you.
One can only marvel at your persistence, in your relentless insistence that the last fall's incidents show that the SDR has issues with the inexperience of their participants that can only be resolved by "raising the bar", safety inspections, more seminars, charging a fee for entry, or whatever...

All the while, without offering ONE SINGLE SHRED OF EVIDENCE that the problems experienced by any of the boats involved in SARs were related to the experience level of the crews, or problems likely to have been detected in a pre-departure ISAF safety check...

There is one, and only one, factor based upon the information we currently have available that all those boats had in common... Namely, that they wound up in the wrong place, at the wrong time, as a result of the timing of their departures and/or the particular routes they chose to sail... Numerous other SDR departed around the time of the 1500, which turned out to be the far better call in hindsight, and made it south of the Stream without any serious difficulty before the secondary front stalled over much of the fleet behind them, and the proverbial sh_t hit the fan...

Sometimes, even the best or most experienced can get it wrong, in the North Atlantic late in the season. We just saw a pretty clear example of that 2 weeks ago, after all... Your refusal to recognize that, your persistence in placing blame or responsibility on entities other than on the individual skippers and crews who undertook their voyages, and your call for "regulation", is sadly misguided, in my view - and seriously undermines the proper notion that offshore sailors themselves are the only ones to be held accountable for their actions...
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  #654  
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

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Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
Sometimes, even the best or most experienced can get it wrong, in the North Atlantic late in the season. We just saw a pretty clear example of that 2 weeks ago, after all... Your refusal to recognize that, your persistence in placing blame or responsibility on entities other than on the individual skippers and crews who undertook their voyages, and your call for "regulation", is sadly misguided, in my view - and seriously undermines the proper notion that offshore sailors themselves are the only ones to be held accountable for their actions...
The bolded part is exactly right. And as York so eloquently implied, an organization that is encouraging people to head into that at that time of year should probably make an effort to "meet the standards recently suggested by the USCG or US Sailing for West Coast racing"...especially if, as you illustrate, the participants are not the best and most experienced sailors.
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  #655  
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
Yeah, the folks that run the Caribbean 1500 sure did a hell of a job educating this skipper about EXACTLY WHAT HE MIGHT BE IN FOR on that passage, alright... I'll bet he passed their ISAF-based Safety Inspection with flying colors :-)
An owner would have to pay extra for me to deliver that boat so I had time to strip that junk off and get the dinghy on the foredeck.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
Hank's probably got more pressing issues on his plate at the moment, than be the one to be deciding who should or should not be permitted to venture out into the N Atlantic in Janu... uhhh, I mean November... :-)
Hank is a friend of mine and we've talked a couple of times since his adventure. I'll reiterate what I said before: Hank is one of the best skippers I know and I'm happy to have sailed with him. Disclaimer: I was a pro-skipper working for Hank's Offshore Passage Opportunities for a couple of years.

The entry requirements for the NARC are new, following the issues in the NARC a couple of years ago. The new rules and--I suspect--the recommendation to less experienced skippers and crew to consider the Caribbean 1500 have more to do with liability than anything else. The NARC, like the SDR, has its roots in the desire to provide an opportunity for supporting a bunch of folks heading in the same direction at the time.
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  #656  
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
The bolded part is exactly right. And as York so eloquently implied, an organization that is encouraging people to head into that at that time of year should probably make an effort to "meet the standards recently suggested by the USCG or US Sailing for West Coast racing"...especially if, as you illustrate, they're not the best and most experienced sailors.
So, in other words, the SDR needs to "raise their bar" at least to the level of the 1500 and NARC, 'cause their respective standards and practices have been so eminently successful in the prevention of the losses of both boats, and life, in their respective rallies in recent years, correct?

Or, perhaps not...

What I don't get, is where were you with all your hand-wringing, and calls for greater "regulation", in the wake of those far more tragic events? As far as I can tell, we didn't hear a peep out of you back when the NARC - with its "nebulous" entry requirements, lack of seminars and safety inspections, and perhaps worst of all, being FREE to all participants - "encouraged" sailors to undertake a passage far riskier than the route of the SDR, with the resultant tragic consequences?
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  #657  
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

I'm actually the target demographic now. So, I've grown more interested in it.
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  #658  
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Sorry Smack, I am with Jon and Dave on this one. I really think it was just a bit of bad luck. As I have said before, though I have not participated in rallies, I think they can actually add a level of safety because it gets people really talking things through and maybe someone forgot what another sailor remembered.

I do agree with you also though: there is a misconception that boats travelling in a rally will be safer together once they leave the harbor. After 12-24 hours, you wouldn't see another single boat! We left one year for the Tortugas with several other boats. WIthin hours, we were all separated. Twelve hours later, you couldn't even see their nav lights! So the fallacy is that you are safer travelling as a group, which is not the case.

Still, like Jon, I am not convinced some so-called expert coming on my boat is going to keep me from having problems. The things that happened on the SD were, in my mind, just a lot of bad luck and poor weather forecasting.

Brian
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

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Originally Posted by Cruisingdad View Post
Sorry Smack, I am with Jon and Dave on this one. I really think it was just a bit of bad luck. As I have said before, though I have not participated in rallies, I think they can actually add a level of safety because it gets people really talking things through and maybe someone forgot what another sailor remembered.

I do agree with you also though: there is a misconception that boats travelling in a rally will be safer together once they leave the harbor. After 12-24 hours, you wouldn't see another single boat! We left one year for the Tortugas with several other boats. WIthin hours, we were all separated. Twelve hours later, you couldn't even see their nav lights! So the fallacy is that you are safer travelling as a group, which is not the case.

Still, like Jon, I am not convinced some so-called expert coming on my boat is going to keep me from having problems. The things that happened on the SD were, in my mind, just a lot of bad luck and poor weather forecasting.

Brian
No worries, Brian. You know me - I have no inherent need to be agreed with.

At least you acknowledge that it's not cut-and-dried. Remember, I've NEVER said that "a so-called expert coming on my boat is going to keep me from having problems". Those are the hyperbolic words that Jon and Ausp keep trying to put in my mouth.

My point has always been that with the newer sailors allowed in via low experience requirements, NOT having some kind of substantive safety back up definitely elevates their overall risk...one of the big reasons being the false perception of safety in numbers. Hank certainly seems to agree with that now since he's directing these folks to the C1500.

So, in this regard, I totally agree with Jon and Ausp. The kinds of safety standards present in the C1500 don't guarantee anything. And maybe the SDR incidents were, in fact, just bad luck.

The difference is, with no real safety standards in place, all the SDR can count on is luck. I've never seen that as good seamanship.
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

The safety standards of the NARC and SDR are the best there are: experience on the part of the crews. Experienced owners, skippers, and crew will make educated decisions about what is appropriate for them and their boats before heading offshore.
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