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post #671 of 961 Old 02-05-2014
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Smack, I think we should leave the Uncontrollable Urge incident findings over on the racing threads and not here. If you want to discuss them, I would be happy to join you over there

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post #672 of 961 Old 02-05-2014
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

That's cool with me. I just think there are a lot of things in that panel's findings that are very applicable here. And, as I've always said in this thread, the scrutiny and process that follows an incident in the organized racing side of sailing should be equally applied to the organized cruising side of sailing.

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post #673 of 961 Old 02-05-2014
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Should we all scratch the date of this event into the skin of our forearms as to never forget?

It is my understanding that when the Salty Dawg Rally was formed, it was between a few seasoned 1500 cruisers. “Seasoned” meaning they had participated for several years and had paid good money each year to the “for profit” event. They had gained all the knowledge they were ever going to gain from the seminars. There were no hard feelings toward the 1500, lots of praise for having participated, lots of good memories and strong bonds towards those they met. It was just very practical that “graduates” developed, and it was time for them to leave the nest.
In other words, there was a couple of cruisers that felt confident enough to “buddy boat” on down to the BVI. Without paying out a substantial amount of their cash for an education they had already acquired. Or paying to have safety standards checked by others, since their lives depended on it because they had lived aboard for the past 9+ (?) years. I was told year one that it was not for newbies or uninitiated. It was a rally for seasoned sailors, organized more for the camaraderie than as “hand holding” event that you’d like it to become. Not for profit. They shared dinners, stories, advice, while preparing. They had weather service. Each year it grew and there were more boats involved.
What is so wrong with having choices? The 1500 for the more intrepid needing the education and support, or the Salty Dawg that offers less of that and geared more toward the confident and seasoned sailors. OMG! You must stay awake nights thinking of those that partake in neither, go off on their own accord! All while you are unable to control or sanction!
Could your energies be better put to use by trying to force your standards in….. Perhaps our school systems, our medical system, the VA? How about giving a go at making America join the metric system? That’s a standard that’s used worldwide except here! What’s to become of the 12 year old caring for her siblings while her parents are at work until 2 am? The list could go on.
But really? Really? You have been going on and on and on and on about an annual migration that involves a small number of people. That’s what’s most important to you? Really? What exactly are you trying to accomplish? Do you just want us to acknowledge and validate your point? Would you like a form letter to our state representatives asking for legislation? A hug? A smack? What? What do you want? Across the board standards for boaters in the ocean? Really?
Stop the madness! Step away from the keyboard! Help a struggling child and then Go Sailing!
I meant this in the most loving way. My hand to god
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post #674 of 961 Old 02-05-2014
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Gada, if the SDR adopts your wording for the bar to entry:

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...A few seasoned 1500 cruisers. “Seasoned” meaning they had participated for several years and had gained all the knowledge they were ever going to gain from the seminars. For “graduates”, and it was time for them to leave the nest.
Instead of "one bluewater passage" being that bar...I'm happy to leave it. That would be the best, simplest fix. No "regulation" required at all.

Until then...

S/V Dawn Treader - 1989 Hunter Legend 40

Last edited by smackdaddy; 02-05-2014 at 11:26 PM.
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post #675 of 961 Old 02-05-2014
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Perhaps you should contact them and discover what their vetting process is first hand. They'll either accept or deny you? You'll either join or not? Maybe start your own unique rally using your standards and rules? I don't know why you are so adamant on insisting 1 sailing rally adopt and pacify your personnel standards.
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post #676 of 961 Old 02-05-2014
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

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Originally Posted by Gadagirl View Post
Perhaps you should contact them and discover what their vetting process is first hand. They'll either accept or deny you? You'll either join or not? Maybe start your own unique rally using your standards and rules? I don't know why you are so adamant on insisting 1 sailing rally adopt and pacify your personnel standards.
Sure. I'll send an email to them asking for an explanation - though I think that info will likely come out in the review they said they'll conduct, and I doubt they'll want to go into it publicly until that review is done.

In the mean time, I'm not real sure why this discussion gets on your toes so much. There are always at least two sides to an issue. Why are you adamant I not talk about this side of it?

S/V Dawn Treader - 1989 Hunter Legend 40
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post #677 of 961 Old 02-06-2014
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Because you go on angrily condemning and coming off as a control freak.

Could you not contact many of them privately through their blogs or FB and enquirer about their experiences or thoughts? Get some private first hand accounts?

Where are all of those participants? Not commenting here because they are off on their cruise, enjoying life. We are stuck in the frozen north, caught up in the Rallies Gone Wrong Vortex, arguing with you about how they chose to go. But guess what they all went and we didn't.

If you're truly just trying to protect the naive and innocent then there are better causes that could use your talents and energy. Seriously. Maybe you could start a rally that follows your rules and raises sailing to your perceived higher standards of passage making. But continuing and insisting that your ideas of passage making should be enforced, or made a minimum standard is similar to trying to force a specific religion on a given population. It has the same effect. No consensus.

Better to live and let live. If they screw up badly you can always say "I told you so."
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post #678 of 961 Old 02-06-2014
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gadagirl View Post
Should we all scratch the date of this event into the skin of our forearms as to never forget?

It is my understanding that when the Salty Dawg Rally was formed, it was between a few seasoned 1500 cruisers. “Seasoned” meaning they had participated for several years and had paid good money each year to the “for profit” event. They had gained all the knowledge they were ever going to gain from the seminars. There were no hard feelings toward the 1500, lots of praise for having participated, lots of good memories and strong bonds towards those they met. It was just very practical that “graduates” developed, and it was time for them to leave the nest.
In other words, there was a couple of cruisers that felt confident enough to “buddy boat” on down to the BVI. Without paying out a substantial amount of their cash for an education they had already acquired. Or paying to have safety standards checked by others, since their lives depended on it because they had lived aboard for the past 9+ (?) years. I was told year one that it was not for newbies or uninitiated. It was a rally for seasoned sailors, organized more for the camaraderie than as “hand holding” event that you’d like it to become. Not for profit. They shared dinners, stories, advice, while preparing. They had weather service. Each year it grew and there were more boats involved.
What is so wrong with having choices? The 1500 for the more intrepid needing the education and support, or the Salty Dawg that offers less of that and geared more toward the confident and seasoned sailors. OMG! You must stay awake nights thinking of those that partake in neither, go off on their own accord! All while you are unable to control or sanction!
Few things he's written in this thread demonstrate a greater lack of understanding about how these rallies operate, and the genesis of the SDR, than the following written a few dozen posts ago:

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
And if "a pool of unsurpassed knowledge" is so important, why is there so much resistance to one of the best pools of this on the planet - the one that the C1500 uses? One rally is very clearly meeting that need. The other? Who knows?
I wonder if he could share with us, precisely who comprises one of "the best pools of knowledge on the planet" that defines the Caribbean 1500? And, where were they a few years ago, "clearly meeting the needs" of those under their wing, when one of the boats in their flock foolishly entered Oregon Inlet in heavy seas less than a day out of Hampton, or when RULE 62 was lost with one of her crew a week later?

Now, Rick Palm obviously has a good deal of experience on this route, and I have nothing but respect for Andy Schell, who certainly made the right call last fall with the weather and the time of their departure... But they are presumed to comprise one of the most knowledgeable, experienced pools of bluewater sailing talent on Earth? Seriously?

What he completely fails to appreciate, is how much of the 1500's "knowledge pool" was diluted with the formation of the SDR... The entry list for the first 2 years of the SDR is filled with veterans of multiple 1500s like Bill and Linda Knowles... Boats like the Hylas 70 ARCHANGEL, the former "flagship" of the 1500, bolted immediately for the SDR, as did the very experienced crew of the Tayana 64 CELEBRATION... In short, there was a massive shift of experience and talent between the respective fleets of the 1500 and SDR, with the exodus of so many of the 1500's stalwarts and veterans... But, that sure hasn't kept him from railing incessantly about their "low bar to entry", or "casual approach to safety"...

Anyway, thanks for joining the fray, good to see someone else has had it with some of this blather... :-)
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Last edited by JonEisberg; 02-06-2014 at 01:06 AM.
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post #679 of 961 Old 02-06-2014
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Yes but wouldn't that be almost a natural human progression? A bunch of experienced vets, move on to create something different? As I said. What's wrong in having a choice geared toward your experience level? Not every body wants to stay at the shallow end of the pool. Eventually we learn to like and respect the deep end.
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post #680 of 961 Old 02-06-2014
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

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Originally Posted by Gadagirl View Post
Because you go on angrily condemning and coming off as a control freak.
First, I'd be very interested for you to demonstrate where I've been angry. Second, a control freak is not usually one who is expressing an opinion, but the one who is telling another to stop expressing an opinion. You see how that works?

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We are stuck in the frozen north, caught up in the Rallies Gone Wrong Vortex, arguing with you about how they chose to go. But guess what they all went and we didn't.
So who's angry again?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gadagirl View Post
Maybe you could start a rally that follows your rules and raises sailing to your perceived higher standards of passage making. But continuing and insisting that your ideas of passage making should be enforced, or made a minimum standard is similar to trying to force a specific religion on a given population. It has the same effect. No consensus.

Better to live and let live. If they screw up badly you can always say "I told you so."
Remember, I agreed with your definition of to the standards of passage above for the SDR.

Sorry - you're not making a lot of sense here.

S/V Dawn Treader - 1989 Hunter Legend 40
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