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  #681  
Old 02-06-2014
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
Few things he's written in this thread demonstrate a greater lack of understanding about how these rallies operate, and the genesis of the SDR, than the following written a few dozen posts ago:

Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
And if "a pool of unsurpassed knowledge" is so important, why is there so much resistance to one of the best pools of this on the planet - the one that the C1500 uses? One rally is very clearly meeting that need. The other? Who knows?


I wonder if he could share with us, precisely who comprises one of "the best pools of knowledge on the planet" that defines the Caribbean 1500?
Jon, yet again, you misunderstand. See that word "uses". Here is that pool of knowledge that the C1500 draws from and provides to its participants:

Regulations/Constitution | Documents & Rules | ISAF | World Sailing | Official Website : ISAF Regulations Index

That's years and years of knowledge compiled by the best in the world - and it's completely unaffected by whomever might or might not leave the C1500.

You and Gada are going in big huffy circles.

Use Gada's - and now your - description of who left and created the SDR as the standard of entry for the SDR: C1500 (or equivalent) veterans...and send the newbs to the C1500. Debate over.

Seems to be good enough for Hank. Why aren't you taking him to task?

(PS - If I couldn't understand what someone was saying, I'd call it blather too.)
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  #682  
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
Jon, yet again, you misunderstand. See that word "uses". Here is that pool of knowledge that the C1500 draws from and provides to its participants:

Regulations/Constitution | Documents & Rules | ISAF | World Sailing | Official Website : ISAF Regulations Index

That's years and years of knowledge compiled by the best in the world - and it's completely unaffected by whomever might or might not leave the C1500.

You and Gada are going in big huffy circles.

Use Gada's - and now your - description of who left and created the SDR as the standard of entry for the SDR: C1500 (or equivalent) veterans...and send the newbs to the C1500. Debate over.
Well, speaking of "going around in big huffy circles", I believe we are still waiting for you to provide a single shred of factual evidence that your "easy fix" would have averted any of the problems of the boats abandoned or that required assistance in the SDR last fall...

Or, for that matter, why that awesome Pool of Knowledge that the 1500 draws from didn't result in the prevention of similar losses of boats, or life, in previous editions of the 1500?

By the way, could you please cite for us, the list of "newbs" that participated in the SDR, that should have been directed to the 1500, instead? Surely you must have a pretty good idea who did and did not belong in that fleet, since you keep referring to it as being a virtual given, no?

round and round we go... :-)
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  #683  
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
Well, speaking of "going around in big huffy circles", I believe we are still waiting for you to provide a single shred of factual evidence that your "easy fix" would have averted any of the problems of the boats abandoned or that required assistance in the SDR last fall...

Or, for that matter, why that awesome Pool of Knowledge that the 1500 draws from didn't result in the prevention of similar losses of boats, or life, in previous editions of the 1500?

By the way, could you please cite for us, the list of "newbs" that participated in the SDR, that should have been directed to the 1500, instead? Surely you must have a pretty good idea who did and did not belong in that fleet, since you keep referring to it as being a virtual given, no?

round and round we go... :-)
As I've told you before, this kind of proof you're insisting on is a red herring. It's equivalent to saying that safety regulations in the aircraft industry are ineffective or unnecessary because a plane crashed. What you're asking for doesn't matter.

Any way you try to spin it, you can't get away from the fact that the SDR had 5 SAR incidents - which resulted in the USCG's Marine Safety Alert. If what actually happened is proof enough for the USCG, it's certainly proof enough for me. So you can keep on insisting - but it doesn't matter.

As for the "newbs" - I'd say, just as you have said in this thread - that anyone with only a single "bluewater passage" under their belt is definitely a newb when sailing in this part of the ocean at this time of year. We'll see what other information comes out.
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  #684  
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Pretty narrow definition.

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
As for the "newbs" - I'd say, just as you have said in this thread - that anyone with only a single "bluewater passage" under their belt is definitely a newb when sailing in this part of the ocean at this time of year.
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  #685  
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

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Originally Posted by Shockwave View Post
Pretty narrow definition.
You're right. It is. But that's the problem with the SDR's stated bar to entry. What does that really mean?

A single bluewater passage being a circumnavigation or an ocean crossing is very different than a 3-4 day run 100 miles off the coast.

If what they mean by their definition is the former, then 100+ boats is a hell of a lot of boats that meet pretty narrow definition.
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Kinda the same......

"To join a World Cruising Club rally, you will need a seaworthy boat. We don't define the type of boat, but we do set some limits on boat length (see the FAQs in the rally pages), and we expect you and your boat to have completed an offshore passage in the year before the rally."

Note: the only passage requirement for the ARC is to get to St Lucia ~500 miles.

Look, there are folks who have sailed more and folks that have sailed less but if someone wants to go sailing and chooses to join a rally it's all on them.

What happened in the SDR could just as easily have happened in the Carib 1500. Sometimes, we as sailors are unlucky.

I have this feeling you might have said no to Laura Dekker?

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
You're right. It is. But that's the problem with the SDR's stated bar to entry. What does that really mean?

A single bluewater passage being a circumnavigation or an ocean crossing is very different than a 3-4 day run 100 miles off the coast.

If what they mean by their definition is the former, then 100+ boats is a hell of a lot of boats that meet pretty narrow definition.
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

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Originally Posted by Shockwave View Post
Kinda the same......

"To join a World Cruising Club rally, you will need a seaworthy boat. We don't define the type of boat, but we do set some limits on boat length (see the FAQs in the rally pages), and we expect you and your boat to have completed an offshore passage in the year before the rally."

Note: the only passage requirement for the ARC is to get to St Lucia ~500 miles.
Yes. But the second you start comparing rally against rally, you need to compare the other factors beyond that standard to entry (cost, safety standards, etc.) . Compare those of the C1500 and SDR and you see some striking differences (I laid them out earlier in this thread).

You can't just take one thing in isolation in these comparisons.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shockwave View Post
Look, there are folks who have sailed more and folks that have sailed less but if someone wants to go sailing and chooses to join a rally it's all on them.
I totally agree with you. That choice of whether to join a rally or not is all on them. But I can virtually guarantee that if the rally organization encouraging these big groups of sailors to hit the GS in winter has problems like this (necessitating a USCG Marine Safety Alert) - and is not seen to be policing itself to counteract such problems...it makes for a lot of interest from outside parties. Just look at the Farrallones race tragedy aftermath.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shockwave View Post
LWhat happened in the SDR could just as easily have happened in the Carib 1500. Sometimes, we as sailors are unlucky.

I have this feeling you might have said no to Laura Dekker?
That's true - luck has something to do with it. Good seamanship has a lot to do with it as well. You can't always rely only on luck.

At 13? Yes, I would have definitely said no. At 20, I might consider going out with her.
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  #688  
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Jon,

You keep wanting "proof" that these SDR incidents wouldn't have happened with safety standards/inspections in place. Here's a more rational way to look at it...

If the rudder failures were, as you imply, on boats that had very experienced owners/skippers/crews - find out when they last dropped and inspected their rudders and related components. In your experienced opinion - how often and when should this be done? And did they do it within those parameters? And if not, what are your thoughts about those sailors and the outcome?
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

At the end of the day, when you drop the dock lines you are on your own. The differences in the rally's is of no consequence. The choice to go with a rally is no different then sailing to the islands on your own. If you get in trouble will someone come? Maybe, maybe not. There are no guarantees when sailing.
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

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Originally Posted by Shockwave View Post
At the end of the day, when you drop the dock lines you are on your own. The differences in the rally's is of no consequence. The choice to go with a rally is no different then sailing to the islands on your own. If you get in trouble will someone come? Maybe, maybe not. There are no guarantees when sailing.
Now this is absolutely true.
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