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  #691  
Old 02-06-2014
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
Jon, yet again, you misunderstand. See that word "uses". Here is that pool of knowledge that the C1500 draws from and provides to its participants:

Regulations/Constitution | Documents & Rules | ISAF | World Sailing | Official Website : ISAF Regulations Index

That's years and years of knowledge compiled by the best in the world - and it's completely unaffected by whomever might or might not leave the C1500.
Your faith in ISAF is very cute.
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  #692  
Old 02-06-2014
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

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Originally Posted by chall03 View Post
Your faith in ISAF is very cute.
So are my pants!

Actually, read paragraph 1.02.1 in the ISAF regs. I think you'll like it.
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  #693  
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

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Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
So are my pants!

Actually, read paragraph 1.02.1 in the ISAF regs. I think you'll like it.
I do love it and enjoy quoting it all the time Yet people continually want to try and carve away at this core concept.........

Incidentally the ocean had 1.02.1 clearly defined long before ISAF added it
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  #694  
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

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Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
So are my pants!

Actually, read paragraph 1.02.1 in the ISAF regs. I think you'll like it.
While we are reading try ISAF regs try 1.01.1.

It is my issue with the regs being the last say on safety for rallies.

They were never intended as such. There are some differences between shorthanded offshore cruising, and offshore racing.

I agree that yes they are however a great reference for cruisers, and a good starting point for safety. We have used them thus ourselves, but have deviated when we have found, researched and evaluated what believe to be a better solution.
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  #695  
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

I agree with you. I'm currently outfitting our boat using the OSR Cat 1 regs...with many deviations. For example, I'm not going to replace our coated lifelines, and we are carrying a PLB in our ditch bag (and also have SPOT, DSC, etc.) but will likely not have an EPIRB or SART-Tx for our trip. I'll also have a coastal life raft - not off-shore. So I'm doing what I think makes sense for us - but using ISAF as the standard.

That's why I like what the C1500 is doing - using the ISAF as a go-by, not just blindly applying them as-is. It's a good approach.
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  #696  
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
I agree with you. I'm currently outfitting our boat using the OSR Cat 1 regs...with deviations. For example, I'm not going to replace our coated lifelines, and we are carrying a PLB in our ditch bag (and also have SPOT, DSC, etc.) but will likely not have an EPIRB or SART-Tx for our trip. I'll also have a coastal life raft - not off-shore. So I'm doing what I think makes sense for us - but using ISAF as the standard.

That's why I like what the C1500 is doing - using the ISAF as a go-by, not just blindly applying them as-is. It's a good approach.
Yeah we got stung on the lifelines. We do like to be involved club sailing from time to time and so our perfectly fine coated lifelines had to go
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  #697  
Old 02-07-2014
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Interesting. Here's my perspective, and it's one from someone that if getting ready to take their first offshore passage with the Carib 1500 this year.

First is I don't understand the comparison with people saying this one is better etc etc. to my knowledge, they are both probably using the same weather services and although Carib makes a call for the fleet, they still say in big letters "it's the captains decision to leave" - just like the SDR..

Second, both have had issues. If I recall, didn't a woman die in the Carib a few years ago? Both I think are inherently, and equally dangerous. In the SDR you check your own safety, in the Carib, some guy comes on and sniffs around for 15 minutes.

Lastly, I think the potential for risk in the Carib is much much higher. You can take your ship on a 1500 mile offshore passage and your only experience has been lake sailing. The safety course is actually only recommended, not required. That leaves you with a massive massive experience gap. You are praying that they make the weather call right. At least in the SDR you have taken one offshore passage.

Then again, there is always delivery captains
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Last edited by vtsailguy; 02-07-2014 at 11:28 AM.
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  #698  
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Quote:
Originally Posted by vtsailguy View Post
Interesting. Here's my respective, and it's one from someone that if getting ready to take their first offshore passage with the Carib 1500 this year.

First is I don't understand the comparison with people saying this one is better etc etc. to my knowledge, they are both probably using the same weather services and although Carib makes a call for the fleet, they still say in big letters "it's the captains decision to leave" - just like the SDR..

Second, both have had issues. If I recall, didn't a woman die in the Carib a few years ago? Both I think are inherently, and equally dangerous. In the SDR you check your own safety, in the CRib, some guy comes on and sniffs around for 15 minutes.

Lastly, I think the potential f risk in the Carib is much much higher. You can take your ship on a 1500 mile offshore passage and your only experience have been lake sailing. The safety course is actually only recommended, not required. That leaves you with a massive massive experience gap. You are praying that they make the weather call right. At least in the SDR you have taken one offshore passage.

Then again, there is always delivery captains


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VT - you're way off. Here's the standard of entry for the C1500:

"To join a World Cruising Club rally, you will need a seaworthy boat. We don't define the type of boat, but we do set some limits on boat length (see the FAQs in the rally pages), and we expect you and your boat to have completed an offshore passage in the year before the rally."

Preparing

So, it's roughly the same as the SDR, with more clarification that it be your boat and be within the past year. So, your statement that:

Quote:
Lastly, I think the potential f risk in the Carib is much much higher. You can take your ship on a 1500 mile offshore passage and your only experience have been lake sailing. The safety course is actually only recommended, not required. That leaves you with a massive massive experience gap.
Is pretty seriously flawed. And because the C1500 requires equipping the boat to their ISAF-based standard, along with a safety inspection - this "massive, massive experience gap" is definitely addressed in what I think is a very common sense way. It is not in the SDR.

So, again, if you're going to compare rallies, at least be accurate.

ALL THAT SAID....if you are speaking from personal experience, and all you have is lake sailing experience, and the C1500 knew this and let you in anyway...then that's a different matter completely that deserves some follow up.
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Last edited by smackdaddy; 02-07-2014 at 11:20 AM.
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Once you get the terms and conditions, they are somewhat more specific (I have them in my hand).

You are not required to have completed an offshore passage, you are required to have completed a 250nm cruise. It doesn't need to be offshore. You'll probably rack up those miles in the coastal trip to get to Portsmouth, VA.

The ISAF is a red herring. Any captain is going to make sure they have the appropriate safety equipment.

The inspection is also a red herring, it doesn't always even happen (two different captain's experiences):

Quote:
"However, we are told that this year, we are to inspect our own vessels and have our crew sign the safety inspection. I am extremely disappointed with this last minute change ... This is one of the touted benefits of rally participation that I signed up for and it is just done away with without any explanation! I know that other captains were looking forward to this as was I, not only to have three other trained eyes looking over our preparations, but to learn from one another different and possibly better ways of making our boats safe and ready for ocean passages. But my crew and I go through the safety checklist checking each and every item before signing it and turning it in."
and

Quote:
The event organizers had distributed a "required equipment list" and all boats were expected to have the items. Compliance was checked during the safety inspections, but not necessarily rigorously. For example, we said our compass had been adjusted and had a deviation table, but we didn't have to show the deviation table (which didn't actually exist).
The bottom line is both are a bunch of boats heading off for a long passage, and both using virtually identical weather services. Arguably, there is more offshore experience associated with the crews of the SDR than the Carib 1500.
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  #700  
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Then yeah - I'd say that's a problem. If they are advertising one standard publicly, then reducing those standards on the applications T&Cs, then in reality once you're in with lack of inspections - that ain't cool. It's actually worse than the SDR*.

*Potentially. Now it will be interesting to see what the detail in the SDR's application T&Cs was.

On this, though...

Quote:
Originally Posted by vtsailguy View Post
The ISAF is a red herring. Any captain is going to make sure they have the appropriate safety equipment.
When you take a cross-section of 100+ boats doing that (or any) big-offshore run, I can virtually guarantee you that this is not true.
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Last edited by smackdaddy; 02-07-2014 at 11:39 AM.
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