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  #721  
Old 02-09-2014
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Quote:
Originally Posted by jameswilson29 View Post
Are we talking about dinner, or the sunburned First Mate?
If the current crop of newbies is any indication it will be the latter.
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  #722  
Old 02-09-2014
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
Jon,

You keep wanting "proof" that these SDR incidents wouldn't have happened with safety standards/inspections in place. Here's a more rational way to look at it...

If the rudder failures were, as you imply, on boats that had very experienced owners/skippers/crews - find out when they last dropped and inspected their rudders and related components. In your experienced opinion - how often and when should this be done? And did they do it within those parameters? And if not, what are your thoughts about those sailors and the outcome?
Well, glad to see you're finally coming around to realizing that the SAR incidents last fall were not necessarily related to "inexperience", nor that the 1500's Safety Inspection would have done anything to avert them :-)

As far as inspection rudders and such, that's a difficult question to answer... I would guess that the Alden 54 ZULU was of a vintage where the integrity of the rudder could be a ticking clock, that boat is probably close to 25 years old... Who knows if the rudder has ever been pulled, or rebuilt? All I know is that I'm feeling a lot better about the underbody of my own 40 year old boat, having replaced both the keel and gone with an overbuilt rudder with an oversized Nitronic 50 shaft about 10 years ago... I figure I'm good to go, for awhile...

However, as we have recently seen, should Hank Schmitt have dropped and split open the rudders on the brand new Alpha 42, prior to her maiden voyage? Maybe so... :-)

And, it's worth noting that the HC 38 NYAPA that was dismasted, had just had all new standing rigging fitted last summer. Go figure...

Only serves to highlight one of the defining characteristics of sailing offshore - You just never know...
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  #723  
Old 02-09-2014
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Quote:
Originally Posted by vtsailguy View Post
Once you get the terms and conditions, they are somewhat more specific (I have them in my hand).

You are not required to have completed an offshore passage, you are required to have completed a 250nm cruise. It doesn't need to be offshore. You'll probably rack up those miles in the coastal trip to get to Portsmouth, VA.

The ISAF is a red herring. Any captain is going to make sure they have the appropriate safety equipment.

The inspection is also a red herring, it doesn't always even happen (two different captain's experiences):

Quote:
"However, we are told that this year, we are to inspect our own vessels and have our crew sign the safety inspection. I am extremely disappointed with this last minute change ... This is one of the touted benefits of rally participation that I signed up for and it is just done away with without any explanation! I know that other captains were looking forward to this as was I, not only to have three other trained eyes looking over our preparations, but to learn from one another different and possibly better ways of making our boats safe and ready for ocean passages. But my crew and I go through the safety checklist checking each and every item before signing it and turning it in."
and

Quote:
The event organizers had distributed a "required equipment list" and all boats were expected to have the items. Compliance was checked during the safety inspections, but not necessarily rigorously. For example, we said our compass had been adjusted and had a deviation table, but we didn't have to show the deviation table (which didn't actually exist).
The bottom line is both are a bunch of boats heading off for a long passage, and both using virtually identical weather services. Arguably, there is more offshore experience associated with the crews of the SDR than the Carib 1500.
Thanks very much for posting that, perhaps it will quiet some folks around here down a bit...:-)

I had some firsthand knowledge from a few years ago of how cursory their safety inspection could be, and how shortly prior to departure they were sometimes conducted, barely leaving enough time to make a trip to the Hampton West Marine store before closing in order to attempt to rectify some shortcoming...

But this is the first I've heard that some inspections were not conducted at all... I can only wonder whether the boat that Hank turned away from the NARC years ago due to his concern about its readiness to make the passage, was ever inspected before setting sail with the 1500 fleet...
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  #724  
Old 02-09-2014
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

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Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
Thanks very much for posting that, perhaps it will quiet some folks around here down a bit...:-)

I had some firsthand knowledge from a few years ago of how cursory their safety inspection could be, and how shortly prior to departure they were sometimes conducted, barely leaving enough time to make a trip to the Hampton West Marine store before closing in order to attempt to rectify some shortcoming...

But this is the first I've heard that some inspections were not conducted at all... I can only wonder whether the boat that Hank turned away from the NARC years ago due to his concern about its readiness to make the passage, was ever inspected before setting sail with the 1500 fleet...
Quiet me down? As if.

Honestly, it is troubling to hear about this on the C1500. I'm going to poke around on that a bit. As I said above, advertising one thing on your site, then doing another behind the scenes is not cool at all.

Even so, to me, the inspections aren't as much of a big deal as the ISAF-based safety standards. Those are a great guidepost to getting yourself and your boat ready for a passage. You just can't "know" all that stuff on your own, especially early on in your endeavors. It's a great list to go by. And because it's "mandatory" (or at least advertised to be so) - you'll likely do it.

Anyway, I'm glad we've not stopped talking about it. We're learning new things.

(PS - Jon, was it you or Ausp that was bemoaning my dangerous participation in these threads in the chat rooms?)
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Last edited by smackdaddy; 02-10-2014 at 03:14 PM.
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  #725  
Old 02-10-2014
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

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Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
However, as we have recently seen, should Hank Schmitt have dropped and split open the rudders on the brand new Alpha 42, prior to her maiden voyage? Maybe so... :-)
I expect there was some intended sarcasm in your comment Jon.

Perhaps it is because of my time as a naval architect under contract to the US Navy but I'm a big fan of weld inspection after fabrication. Ordinary imagery or better dye penetrant inspection or better yet x-ray is good. Statistically significant destructive testing is about the best you can do. There really aren't all THAT many welds on a recreational fiberglass boat. The factory humored me and took a lot of pictures of welds that would not be available for visual inspection later.
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  #726  
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

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Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post

Even so, to me, the inspections aren't as much of a big deal as the ISAF-based safety standards. Those are a great guidepost to getting yourself and your boat ready for a passage. You just can't "know" all that stuff on your own, especially early on in your endeavors. It's a great list to go by. And because it's "mandatory" (or at least advertised to be so) - you'll likely do it.
Too bad the WCC's online "shop" doesn't show the publications they recommend, I'd be curious to see what makes their list...

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
(PS - Jon, was it you or Ausp that was bemoaning my dangerous participation in these threads in the chat rooms?)
Not me, I've never done the chat room thing... All my "bemoaning" has been done right here, for all to see... :-)
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  #727  
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

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Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
Not me, I've never done the chat room thing... All my "bemoaning" has been done right here, for all to see... :-)
That's why I love you man. Mano-a-mano or nothing. So I wonder who the back-room whiner was? Anyway...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
Too bad the WCC's online "shop" doesn't show the publications they recommend, I'd be curious to see what makes their list...
Your research skillz suck...

http://www.worldcruising.com/Carib1500/safety-usa.aspx

http://www.worldcruising.com/CMS/CMS...ations_ENG.pdf

This is always the kicker, though, that I KNOW goes unaddressed much of the time (based on my off-shore racing)...

Quote:
Each crew member must be fully conversant with the operation of all safety equipment carried and know its stowage positions.
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Last edited by smackdaddy; 02-10-2014 at 03:38 PM.
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  #728  
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
Actually, I was referring to this, from their site:

Quote:
There are some great books full of advice on maintaining your boat and her systems, so do some shopping. We'll provide suggestions in the Rally Handbook, or visit our Shop.
Browsing through the books available for purchase from their shop, I really don't see much of anything relative to offshore seamanship or heavy weather sailing, beyond one of Nigel Calder's books... Understandable that it features British publications, but I think it speaks volumes that one of their offerings is something titled THE RYA BOOK OF BUYING YOUR FIRST SAILING CRUISER, but a classic such as Adlard Coles' HEAVY WEATHER SAILING seems nowhere to be found...

I still find many of the WCC's Requirements truly perplexing, such as having a handheld VHF, or navigational charts for the rally route, being categorized merely as "Recommendations"...
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  #729  
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Doh! My humblest apologies on errant assumption regarding your skillz.

So, on the "recommendations" - am I understanding you correctly that you think these should be "requirements"?

Interesting.
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  #730  
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post

So, on the "recommendations" - am I understanding you correctly that you think these should be "requirements"?

Interesting.
Well, for a rally that has a list stipulating certain items as being "required" gear, I'm surprised that neither of those are considered to be such, yes...
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