Rallies Gone Wrong - Page 8 - SailNet Community
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post #71 of Old 11-08-2013
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

when I took my 100 ton masters it was as simple as having a captain sign your log book, saying you actually sailed...truth be told ANYONE could do this...I used my logbook as I was the captain on my boat and then had the captain of the spanish boat I crewed on sign my other...

never did somebody verify this...and this was at one of the bigger schools in ft lauderdale fl...

and I trully agree...licenses SHOULD be practical tests...or be much more hands on...not to mention I still beleive that the whole 6pack and masters licenses are really useless when it comes down to it...sooo much jibberish and very little practical real world information..
oh and even less useful for sailors...I laughed so hard when the sailing endorsement was basically a 5 page booklet that one took AFTER the whole course...same for towing...

about rallies I remember there was one going up the red sea when the pirate attacks started becoming more frequent and we decided to go alone and not use our navigation lights at night specifically to help us be less evident and be caught...we used radar though.

The last thing we would of wanted was to be a huge floating mass of sailboats all in a herd all lit up and communicating between eachother day an night like most rallies do, making us the biggest target ever!

anywhoo

the great thing about it all is that one has options still...last thing I would want is for every country to adopt laws forcing people to be "masters of the sea" and make it so hard to go beyond the harbor or achorage without doing something ilegal that it would kill most peoples aspirations to even start sailing.

rallies when done well can be nice...the baja haha for example has a great record...and doesnt imply its something greater than it really is etc...

peace
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post #72 of Old 11-08-2013
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

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Originally Posted by boatkied View Post
I have to dis-agree with many of the posts here. I sailed with the Salty Dawg Rally last Fall of 2012 and I have to say it was very well run. They first off have Safety in mind. They work closely with numerous orgs to ensure participates are qualified, trained etc... They work VERY CLOSE with Chris Parker to ensure that conditions are right before leaving.

This year, I could not attend, but I have several friends in the Rally and again, they work with Chris Parker and team to ensure they are following the right course and weather is right. In this case, the forecast was right when they left and suddenly it changed overnight. That is not a reflection of the Rally organizers, but more of a reflection weather forecasting anomaly's...

We delayed for many days last year before leaving and everything was perfect to go. This year, they did the same thing with the same due diligence and the forecast was different.

If you more experienced posters on this site followed the Atlantic Weather overnight, it had a serious shift...
I want to make it clear that I'm not saying this particular rally - or any other - is not being well-run. And I know they all "have safety in mind". But by what standard? This is the problem.

You can have the best weather router in the world - but weather changes - as you've just pointed out. Then it comes down to the preparedness of the participants. If they aren't prepared - you have a serious problem.

Why not hold rallies to the same safety standards as races? It really makes little sense not to.
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post #73 of Old 11-09-2013
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

What safety standards were involved here ?
The you need one person on board who don't get seasick and has been in enough bad weather that his faith in the boat will sustain the others rule ?

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post #74 of Old 11-09-2013
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Smack, rallies are not races except that they may cross the same hunk of ocean. The vessels are different, the crews are different and the intentions of the trip are different.

It would be nice to think that people are smart and aware enough to make proper decisions, but I suspect at some point there will be legislation requiring qualifications like yacht master before a voyage can start.

Had a thought about this. Is there a problem with the common sailor's nature to exaggerate the winds and seas they are in. We have all heard people in the YC bar talking about being out with full #1 and main in 35 knots and 10 foot seas in their xxxxxxx 27 when in fact the winds never went above 22 and the waves 6 feet. They hear about offshore conditions being similar to what they have 'experienced' and feel comfortable with going.
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post #75 of Old 11-09-2013
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

The frequency of these incidents creates a good business opportunity for a salvage company near Hatteras. One could send a boat 200 miles off the coast at the start of each rally, then with radio coordination onshore and maybe a helicopter or plane, locate, secure and board these relatively, expensive large sailboats when the courageous skippers call for a rescue and abandon when they start feeling queasy. Collect the salvage fee and repeat!
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post #76 of Old 11-09-2013
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

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Originally Posted by Tempest View Post
You probably have personal experience with crews, that informs your preference.

But, you know it takes a little more than just test taking to get a Master's Ticket. Correct me if I'm wrong, but a Trip to Bermuda and back from the eastern US could qualify someone for a Yachtmaster Ocean credential (Within 10 years. )

While a CG master 100T, near coastal would require 720 total days of which 360 must be near coastal
with 90 days of recent sea time beyond the Boundary line.
I was referring to the evaluation and not to the prerequisites. To get a Yachtmaster (or the Master of Oceans) from MCA you have to go sailing with a credentialed evaluator.

I've sailed with lots of licensed crew (who I call paper captains) who built up the time one way or another (including a number who did it as stewardesses on big boats) but couldn't apply the knowledge they demonstrated on the test. The red ensign licenses require that you demonstrate application in addition to knowing the answers. It's a good approach.

Let's not forget that the ralliers (whether you like rallies or not) are out there.

Decision-making changes when you are at sea. The books don't matter so much.

I am very curious about the dismasting. Was it a boat problem with the rigging (in which case ISAF-like regulations might have helped) or a crew problem (for example back-to-back crash gybes) in which case all the inspections in the world won't help.

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post #77 of Old 11-09-2013
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Quote:
Originally Posted by killarney_sailor View Post
Smack, rallies are not races except that they may cross the same hunk of ocean. The vessels are different, the crews are different and the intentions of the trip are different.

.....
Yes but neither the sea is different as probably the sailors are less experienced. Minimum safety standards should apply yo all organised offshore events.

Regards

Paulo
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post #78 of Old 11-09-2013
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

The link to this publication states 2 of the 5 boats were part of the rally.

Sail-World.com : Caribbean-bound yachts head south - five rescues in 24 hours
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post #79 of Old 11-09-2013
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

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The link to this publication states 2 of the 5 boats were part of the rally.

Sail-World.com : Caribbean-bound yachts head south - five rescues in 24 hours
I came to this conclusion after looking at the tracking data on the rally's web page. Three of the boats were not listed.
When an incident like this hits the news, it sets off a lot of discussion about the who, what, when, where and (especially) why. Yet news coverage is sketchy, inaccurate, and confusing. Confusing because often the reports use terms inaccurately.
At one point in our discussion, the size of the boats was indicated to be an important factor. It seems that there are seven boats under 40 feet, about 50 that are between 40 and 50 feet, 13 are between 50 and 60 feet and one over 60 feet. These aren't dinks out there braving the elements. Indeed, most of the comments are along the lines "boat and crew doing fine, good sailing".
Maybe it's my goody two shoes attitude, but one would think that the owner of a 40-60 foot sailboat would have prepared himself and his boat before embarking on a major sea voyage. It seems that this is in fact true.
So now it appears that two salty dog ralliers made calls for assistance. A Morgan OI 416 suffering from seasickness asked to be evacuated. And a 38 foot dismasted sailboat called but refused evacuation and is continuing on to the Bahamas.
For their sake, I hope the SDR people parse the news and give an account of how their participants fared. One case of a sea sick crew should be treated as an anomaly.
One thought cones up though. Maybe the CG should air drop some of those electronic sea sickness wrist bands to a crew like that on the Ahmisa and check back later.
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post #80 of Old 11-09-2013
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

So basically there should have been 2 pan pans. Don't think there is a need for aspersions for this particular rally. I do question a may day call for seasickness by a boat that has not been underway for very long. It appears they risked the safety of the CG for their own comfort. The report was that they were also taking on water and that might be the case so would be a reason for a mayday. However if that boat is later found still afloat I think the people should be charged for the rescue. Some might think this could have a chilling effect and it should because going offshore in a pleasure craft is a choice and people need to take personal responsibility. I think charging people for superfluous rescues would have a larger impact then any regulations.
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