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  #791  
Old 04-03-2014
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
Okay, so we're finally getting down to it. You agree that less experienced sailors ("newbs") should avoid the fall rallies. Good. We don't have to argue that one anymore.
Uhhh, I'm pretty certain I've never argued otherwise...

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
Beyond that issue comes the "adult supervision" thing. And the bottom line is this: if it's not good enough make it better (like Andy and Mia seem to be doing according to you - or by "riding the curve" if that presents less risk as you lay out).

OR - do away with rallies altogether.
Even if the supposed "lack of experience" is not a demonstrable factor? Well, that's prudent, I suppose...

Oh, dear... But if the Adult Supervision of the 1500 were ever to disappear, how on earth would all those Newbs ever gain the requisite experience of 2-4 C1500 passages under their belts, before they will be 'permitted' to make the trip on their own? :-)

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
But don't let less experienced sailors into "loosey goosey" rallies where there's little to none.
You be sure to let us know when that happens, OK?

Pretty depressing, how comfortable we Americans have become with our cradle-to-grave Nanny-statism :-), that so many of us are willing to characterize the placement of full responsibility for the preparation and safe completion of an ocean voyage SOLELY on the shoulders of the skipper as a "loosey-goosey" attitude...

Yeah, we've always got to leave some wiggle room for the lawyers and 'regulators', right? :-)

Last edited by JonEisberg; 04-03-2014 at 12:00 PM.
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  #792  
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Smack stop writing and tell us which rally you are going to join...

After all you are 4 times as experienced as Jon...well you have written 4 times as much...Is that the same thing?
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

I have found the perfect rally for Smack and all Newbs.

Bluewater sailing at it's safest with the skipper being able to negate all repsonsiblitity.

The BFS Rally. ( That is Big Friggin Ship)




Sevenstar - Yacht Transport over Seven Seas | Amsterdam

You can drink the rum punch when you get there and if there is a storm someone does the sailing for you and you can sue sue sue.........

Or you could just go sailing, watch your own ass, join a rally if you like or not....all the while knowing that you are responsible.

These are the ONLY two options.

There is no in between, no i'm responsible but they should be responsible for making sure I know that I am responsible.

BFS or BFS.
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  #794  
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yorksailor View Post
Smack stop writing and tell us which rally you are going to join...

After all you are 4 times as experienced as Jon...well you have written 4 times as much...Is that the same thing?
I have right at 1500 off-shore miles. All of those have been on distance races and/or return deliveries crewing/driving other people's boats. Therefore, I consider myself on the "newb"-end of the experience scale.

In other words, I'm the perfect candidate for the SDR. I qualify.

Now, I personally can't stand the idea of a rally. BUT, if I were to do one at this point in my experience, I would - without hesitation - do the C1500 (even with the steep price tag). No freakin' way would I do the SDR (even though it's free).

Why? Safety.

I race off-shore, so I'm used to equipping and sailing to ISAF OSR (usually Cat 2) standards. My opinion is that if you're not willing to learn those standards (or equivalent) and bring yourself, your crew, and your boat up to them (or at least very close) - you shouldn't be out there. Period. The C1500 would "help" me get there (just like any racing Organizing Authority - OA - would), with "adult supervision" I'd happily accept - because it makes sense. The SDR wouldn't.

You have to pay to play. But most people are very, very tempted by a free lunch. And the SDR is essentially offering that via its "this is cruising not racing" mentality...even though you're in exactly the same stretch of water and same potential conditions as an off-shore race would be.

Do ISAF regs "guarantee nothing will go wrong"? Of course not. Only a complete moron would draw that conclusion - or need proof that lack of experience increases risk and causes big problems. But I could very, very easily join the SDR with a dangerously ill-equipped boat and crew and give it a whirl (e.g. - they don't know if I really have a life raft or not). Sure, in the end, it legally would be on me if we all ended up in the water - not them. But they are absolutely fostering this possibility and risk by the way they have things set up as the "Organizing Authority". That's fundamentally what Harries decries I think. And any racing OA that tried that would be shut down in a heartbeat (that's what I personally think the USCG's MSA was about - a shot across the bow).

Would I do the trip myself apart from a rally at my current level of experience? Well, I almost have our boat up to Cat 1 standards (maybe Cat 2+). So I'm getting there. But there is no way I'd attempt that run in Oct/Nov...rally or not. I completely believe and agree with Jon's and Harries' advice on this. I would want to try it first in a much mellower time of year - just to get the boat completely shaken down, learn the routes, etc. (Maybe a couple of times before trying it in the fall.) For me to try to jump into that trip with such small and volatile weather windows - rally or not - would be stupid. I know that.

Yet, again, I qualify.

So, in the end, I'm all about working my way up slowly, learning everything I can from those who know - especially racers who understand the benefits of standards. I'm in no hurry to jump in over my head - even if a particular rally tells me I can and offers me lots of freebies to do so and grow their numbers. I'm the skipper. I'll make my own decision.
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
I have right at 1500 off-shore miles. All of those have been on distance races and/or return deliveries crewing/driving other people's boats. Therefore, I consider myself on the "newb"-end of the experience scale.

In other words, I'm the perfect candidate for the SDR. I qualify.

Now, I personally can't stand the idea of a rally. BUT, if I were to do one at this point in my experience, I would - without hesitation - do the C1500 (even with the steep price tag). No freakin' way would I do the SDR (even though it's free).

Why? Safety.

I race off-shore, so I'm used to equipping and sailing to ISAF OSR (usually Cat 2) standards. My opinion is that if you're not willing to learn those standards (or equivalent) and bring yourself, your crew, and your boat up to them (or at least very close) - you shouldn't be out there. Period. The C1500 would "help" me get there (just like any racing Organizing Authority - OA - would), with "adult supervision" I'd happily accept - because it makes sense. The SDR wouldn't.

You have to pay to play. But most people are very, very tempted by a free lunch. And the SDR is essentially offering that via its "this is cruising not racing" mentality...even though you're in exactly the same stretch of water and same potential conditions as an off-shore race would be.

Do ISAF regs "guarantee nothing will go wrong"? Of course not. Only a complete moron would draw that conclusion. But I could very, very easily join the SDR with a dangerously ill-equipped boat and crew and give it a whirl (e.g. - they don't know if I really have a life raft or not). Sure, in the end, it legally would be on me if we all ended up in the water - not them. But they are absolutely fostering this possibility and risk by the way they have things set up as the "Organizing Authority". That's fundamentally what Harries decries I think. And any racing OA that tried that would be shut down in a heartbeat (that's what I personally think the USCG's MSA was about - a shot across the bow).

Would I do the trip myself apart from a rally at my current level of experience? Well, I almost have our boat up to Cat 1 standards (maybe Cat 2+). So I'm getting there. But there is no way I'd attempt that run in Oct/Nov...rally or not. I completely believe and agree with Jon's and Harries' advice on this. I would want to try it first in a much mellower time of year - just to get the boat completely shaken down, learn the routes, etc. For me to try to jump into that trip with such small and volatile weather windows - rally or not - would be stupid. I know that.

Yet, again, I qualify.

So, in the end, I'm all about working my way up slowly, learning everything I can from those who know - especially racers who understand the benefits of standards. I'm in no hurry to jump in over my head - even if a particular rally tells me I can and offers me lots of freebies to grow their numbers. I'm the skipper. I'll make my own decision.
What makes you think my vessel was not safely equipped? You seem to ASSume that doing the SDR makes you a fly by night hack. This is not the case.

By your own description you do NOT qualify since you don't know how to equip your boat.

Again your ignorance shows. The SDR does help you get safely set up IF YOU ASK FOR HELP. There are plenty of people that will happily answer questions and help you out. But since the skippers are all supposed to have done at least one long passage they should have some idea how to do it. There were a lot of discussions, presentations, seminars and talks and plenty of opportunity to implement changes in your boat from what you've learned.

What they do NOT do is require a safety inspection and flunk you if you disagree with how they think things should be done. Because the onus is on you, the skipper, to be properly prepared.

I'm not sure where you get this "half the SDR fleet was inexperienced and clueless newbs" thing from.
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  #796  
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Quote:
Originally Posted by B.J. Porter View Post
What makes you think my vessel was not safely equipped? You seem to ASSume that doing the SDR makes you a fly by night hack. This is not the case.

By your own description you do NOT qualify since you don't know how to equip your boat.

Again your ignorance shows. The SDR does help you get safely set up IF YOU ASK FOR HELP. There are plenty of people that will happily answer questions and help you out. But since the skippers are all supposed to have done at least one long passage they should have some idea how to do it. There were a lot of discussions, presentations, seminars and talks and plenty of opportunity to implement changes in your boat from what you've learned.

What they do NOT do is require a safety inspection and flunk you if you disagree with how they think things should be done. Because the onus is on you, the skipper, to be properly prepared.

I'm not sure where you get this "half the SDR fleet was inexperienced and clueless newbs" thing from.
Acutally, yes, I do qualify.

BJ - that's where the big disconnect is in this whole debate. You guys who are much more experienced LOVE the SDR precisely because of your experience. That's why the thing was started in the first place.

At the same time, its standard for entry (a single "bluewater passage") is WAY below what any of you would consider sufficient for this kind of trip for an individual on his own. Does the rally aspect really bridge this gap that effectively - with a single safety seminar?

The solution is simple - up that entry standard so it becomes a non-issue. Nothing else needs to change.

(PS - You actually just made the case for this in your post.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by B.J. Porter View Post
I'm not sure where you get this "half the SDR fleet was inexperienced and clueless newbs" thing from.
Where did I say that?
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  #797  
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
At the same time, its standard for entry (a single "bluewater passage") is WAY below what any of you would consider sufficient for this kind of trip.

The solution is simple - up that entry standard so it becomes a non-issue. Nothing else needs to change.
The philosophical difference we are all having here Smack is around that phrase 'entry standard'.

No argument from me that your boat should have just about everything on it that ISAF demands and then some.

But in implementing an 'entry standard' whether you mean to or not, you are shifting some of the responsibility. Your saying the organisers should be responsibile for making sure your responsible.

I understand why your saying it. Yes it fits with the culure that is part and parcel of offshore racing. It is however at odds with the philosophy that pervades blue water cruising.

My issue is that you are trying to make those of us that don't believe in the ISAF culture as blindly as you do to be subject to it, cause you think ( with your self confessed limited experience) that it is the only way.

There are two rallies, two approaches, we all agree that the skipper is ultimately responsible, so he/she makes the decision that best suits and there you go.
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  #798  
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Quote:
Originally Posted by chall03 View Post
The philosophical difference we are all having here Smack is around that phrase 'entry standard'.

No argument from me that your boat should have just about everything on it that ISAF demands and then some.

But in implementing an 'entry standard' whether you mean to or not, you are shifting some of the responsibility. Your saying the organisers should be responsibile for making sure your responsible.

I understand why your saying it. Yes it fits with the culure that is part and parcel of offshore racing. It is however at odds with the philosophy that pervades blue water cruising.

My issue is that you are trying to make those of us that don't believe in the ISAF culture as blindly as you do to be subject to it, cause you think ( with your self confessed limited experience) that it is the only way.

There are two rallies, two approaches, we all agree that the skipper is ultimately responsible, so he/she makes the decision that best suits and there you go.
Chall, thanks for the reasoned response, dude. Seriously. And, yes, you understand the reasoning behind my "standards" very well (borne out of racing). I don't look at it as someone "giving me the okay to go". I look at it as learning to do it right (fully understanding that things can still go very wrong).

Furthermore, I COMPLETELY understand the resistance to what I'm pushing. That resistance is just as reasonable due to the fact that the skipper is solely responsible (just like with racing).

But, the "entry standard" issue is not established by me. It's established by the rally. THEY are inserting themselves into that decision by their definition of readiness. And that's the problem. They are essentially becoming something like an Organizing Authority in a race - yet not taking responsibility for their part of that decision. And it potentially sets them up for liability - as well as increases the risk of incidents with the increasing number of boats (just like with racing).

So, again, a fix might be to do away with the SDR's entry standard altogether and REALLY make it COMPLETELY up to the skipper. Or revise the standard to fit the circumstances of the trip.

As it stands, they're currently trying to be on both sides of the line.
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
Acutally, yes, I do qualify.

BJ - that's where the big disconnect is in this whole debate. You guys who are much more experienced LOVE the SDR precisely because of your experience. That's why the thing was started in the first place.

At the same time, its standard for entry (a single "bluewater passage") is WAY below what any of you would consider sufficient for this kind of trip for an individual on his own. Does the rally aspect really bridge this gap that effectively - with a single safety seminar?

The solution is simple - up that entry standard so it becomes a non-issue. Nothing else needs to change.

(PS - You actually just made the case for this in your post.)



Where did I say that?
You imply it repeatedly every time you post about the lack of experience in SDR skippers. It is implicit in your judgement that they need more "Adult Supervision".

I am not super experienced.

Before the SDR my bluewater experience was bringing my boat back from Florida to RI, and some overnight trips from RI to Maine and Maine down to the Chesapeake.

By the time we did the SDR everyone on board had done a couple of over night trips, but I was the only one that had been out of sight of land for five days.

The difference between ONE off shore multi day passage > 1,000 miles and ZERO passages is enormous.

With ZERO, you have no idea what to expect. You don't really know how you handle seasickness, big waves...heck a lot of people haven't seen big waves if all you do is weekend day sail. No idea what standing watch is like, or what is out there to worry about.

You make one, especially as a skipper, all of a sudden you have a LOT more understanding for what you can get into.

I do not believe the requirement for the SDR is just that you've made one passage. For example, I have a cousin that did the Florida delivery with me. I do not think he'd been sailing for or since...I do not think he would qualify. There is a world of difference between making a passage as crew, and say, doing it with responsibility for preparing your own boat.

Registering for the rally you fill out a questionnaire with the experience of the skipper and crew, I had several email discussions with Linda before hand.

You understate the requirements and belittle the participants. Your characterization of the rally, its operators and the participants is wildly inaccurate. Therefore your conclusions are faulty.
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Quote:
Originally Posted by B.J. Porter View Post
You imply it repeatedly every time you post about the lack of experience in SDR skippers. It is implicit in your judgement that they need more "Adult Supervision".

I am not super experienced.

Before the SDR my bluewater experience was bringing my boat back from Florida to RI, and some overnight trips from RI to Maine and Maine down to the Chesapeake.

By the time we did the SDR everyone on board had done a couple of over night trips, but I was the only one that had been out of sight of land for five days.

The difference between ONE off shore multi day passage > 1,000 miles and ZERO passages is enormous.

With ZERO, you have no idea what to expect. You don't really know how you handle seasickness, big waves...heck a lot of people haven't seen big waves if all you do is weekend day sail. No idea what standing watch is like, or what is out there to worry about.
I understand that. I've done several multi-day off-shore passages - a couple in fairly sporty conditions.

I'm not belittling anyone. I'm talking about SDR's own stated rules for entry. I'm sorry you take that personally.

But, again, you hit the nail on the head above in bold. The difference between a single 2 day passage of 150 miles and your +1K passage is also enormous. So where in the SDR rules for entry are those details stipulated? Can you show that to me? Or is that determination purely up to the Knowles? Is your +1K enough for them? Or is it 150?

Quote:
Originally Posted by B.J. Porter View Post
I do not believe the requirement for the SDR is just that you've made one passage.
It's certainly stated as such on their own website:

http://saltydawgrally.org/
Quote:
The Salty Dawg Rally is a grassroots, non-profit organization, comprised of blue water sailors who have completed at least one blue water passage.
I'm not making this stuff up BJ.

Quote:
Originally Posted by B.J. Porter View Post
For example, I have a cousin that did the Florida delivery with me. I do not think he'd been sailing for or since...I do not think he would qualify. There is a world of difference between making a passage as crew, and say, doing it with responsibility for preparing your own boat.

Registering for the rally you fill out a questionnaire with the experience of the skipper and crew, I had several email discussions with Linda before hand.
Well, then this is where the rubber meets the road. We're back to "adult supervision". You don't think he'd qualify. Do they? If they state the standard for entry above (directly from their website) - then what does that really mean? And if you're having to get clearance from the Knowle's on whether you're qualified or not - are you really qualified to be doing the SDR in the first place (back to your characterization of my current readiness)?

Quote:
Originally Posted by B.J. Porter View Post
You understate the requirements and belittle the participants. Your characterization of the rally, its operators and the participants is wildly inaccurate. Therefore your conclusions are faulty.
Actually, I'm using the information for the SDR website. If how they handle things behind the scenes is completely counter to what they advertise - then that's a bigger problem.
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Last edited by smackdaddy; 04-03-2014 at 11:27 PM.
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