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  #801  
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
I have right at 1500 off-shore miles. All of those have been on distance races and/or return deliveries crewing/driving other people's boats. Therefore, I consider myself on the "newb"-end of the experience scale.

In other words, I'm the perfect candidate for the SDR. I qualify.

Now, I personally can't stand the idea of a rally. BUT, if I were to do one at this point in my experience, I would - without hesitation - do the C1500 (even with the steep price tag). No freakin' way would I do the SDR (even though it's free).

Why? Safety.
Sorry, but that's nonsensical... You've totally bought into the illusion of safety any rally supposedly provides...

Why is is so hard to understand the fundamental flaw behind the rationale of increased "Safety" with regards to these things? If any sailor lacks the confidence to attempt this passage on their own, with no assistance whatsoever from anyone not aboard that boat, they're not ready to make the passage, PERIOD... Nothing that happens from the time you arrive in Hampton, no seminar, no safety inspector coming aboard your boat for 30 minutes to check the expiration date of your flares, NONE of that stuff is gonna get you over the hurdle of being 'qualified' to go, or not...

Let's face it, we all know the "Standards for Entry" are essentially meaningless... Some sailors may learn virtually nothing of value from an offshore passage, others can gain invaluable experience in a 2 week summer cruise to Maine. In all my years of boating, the three most challenging conditions I've ever faced have occurred on Lakes Michigan, Huron, and Erie... Pretty tough to rack up 1000 mile passages on the Great Lakes, and yet those waters have produced many of the finest and toughest sailors in America... So, how can an organizer possibly arrive at a "Standard for Entry" that takes into meaningful account, the incredibly wide array of sailing experience people possess... So, make clear that it's for "Experienced" offshore/bluewater sailors - and that's where a skipper's personal responsibility first comes to the fore. Namely, being honest with himself whether or not he fits that category... NO ONE ELSE can make that determination... If you don't feel ready, you're not ready, simple as that...

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
But there is no way I'd attempt that run in Oct/Nov...rally or not. I completely believe and agree with Jon's and Harries' advice on this. I would want to try it first in a much mellower time of year - just to get the boat completely shaken down, learn the routes, etc. (Maybe a couple of times before trying it in the fall.) For me to try to jump into that trip with such small and volatile weather windows - rally or not - would be stupid. I know that.
Uhhh, perhaps you haven't heard - but the only "mellower" time of the year would be Hurricane Season...

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
I'm in no hurry to jump in over my head - even if a particular rally tells me I can and offers me lots of freebies to do so and grow their numbers. I'm the skipper. I'll make my own decision.
In that case, sounds like the SDR is the one for you... Why on earth would you cede your own decision-making to the Adult Supervisors who will be flying to the BVIs on a commercial airliner in time to set up the after-party?

Save your money, $2K is a lot to spend for a few parties, free dockage for a few days, and a safety inspection... Buy Bill Seifert's book, instead...

If I'm gonna deliver a boat anywhere, I'd prefer to have it prepped to Seifert's standards, over the ISAF standards, every time...


Offshore Sailing: 200 Essential Passagemaking Tips: William Seifert, Daniel Spurr: 9780071374248: Amazon.com: Books Offshore Sailing: 200 Essential Passagemaking Tips: William Seifert, Daniel Spurr: 9780071374248: Amazon.com: Books


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Last edited by JonEisberg; 04-03-2014 at 10:47 PM.
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
I understand that. I've done several multi-day off-shore passages - a couple in fairly sporty conditions.

I'm not belittling anyone. I'm talking about SDR's own stated rules for entry. I'm sorry you take that personally.

But, again, you hit the nail on the head above in bold. The difference between a single 2 day passage of 150 miles and your +1K passage is also enormous. So where in the SDR rules for entry are those details stipulated? Can you show that to me? Or is that determination purely up to the Knowles? Is your +1K enough for them? Or is it 150?



It's certainly stated as such on their own website:

The Salty Dawg Rally


I'm not making this stuff up BJ.



Well, then this is where the rubber meets the road. We're back to "adult supervision". You don't think he'd qualify. Do they? If they state the standard for entry above (directly from their website) - then what does that really mean? And if you're having to get clearance from the Knowle's on whether you're qualified or not - are you really qualified to be doing the race in the first place (back to your characterization of my current readiness)?



Actually, I'm using the information for the SDR website. If how they handle things behind the scenes is completely counter to what they advertise - then that's a bigger problem.
Where are you grabbing that from, a quote from a press release? I don't see anything on the site that specifically says requirements to participate beyond quotes in press releases that talk about "Bluewater experience".

Those...you need to think about what is being said before quoting them as gospel. They're not going to take my cousin as a skipper with his experience, nor are they going to look at overnighting to Maine as "Bluewater". Of course when talking to the media they aren't going to spell out rules. Anyone WITH blue water experience will know roughly what they are talking about. At a minimum they seem to be looking for a multi day passage well out of sight of land, where you are in control of your own vessel.

Go try and register for a rally. You fill out your basic information on the site and you will get an e-mail from Linda. You then discuss specifics of experience and crew and so forth with them to see if you've got experience enough for this.

Now, I don't know that they've rejected people, I suspect there are few as I think the idea that it is for "more experienced" folks will weed out more than a few people that end up in the 1500.

But if you talked to the organizers and said "Yeah, I overnighted on my friends boat to Maine once, now I want to sail my boat to the Caribbean with you" I expect you'd get a gentle suggestion to try the other rally.

There is a good reason to NOT lay out a hard and fast rule; because if you do someone that meets the letter of the rule but not the actual intent of the rule can raise much more of a stink if it is thought they are not ready for it.

As Jon rightly points out, every sailors qualifications are different. There isn't an easy list of hard and fast rules you can put on a web site to say "yup, you are in." But that the SDR is NOT for Newbies is made very clear, and in discussions with the organizers you will not get encouragement if you aren't ready.

As Jon also points out correctly...November is when you make the trip. Summer is hurricane season, you can go then but no insurance company will cover you in a named storm. You could go in April or May I suppose but that is kinds of backwards, and can still be snotty and cold out there too.
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  #803  
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
Sorry, but that's nonsensical... You've totally bought into the illusion of safety any rally supposedly provides...

Why is is so hard to understand the fundamental flaw behind the rationale of increased "Safety" with regards to these things? If any sailor lacks the confidence to attempt this passage on their own, with no assistance whatsoever from anyone not aboard that boat, they're not ready to make the passage, PERIOD... Nothing that happens from the time you arrive in Hampton, no seminar, no safety inspector coming aboard your boat for 30 minutes to check the expiration date of your flares, NONE of that stuff is gonna get you over the hurdle of being 'qualified' to go, or not...

Let's face it, we all know the "Standards for Entry" are essentially meaningless... Some sailors may learn virtually nothing of value from an offshore passage, others can gain invaluable experience in a 2 week summer cruise to Maine. In all my years of boating, the three most challenging conditions I've ever faced have occurred on Lakes Michigan, Huron, and Erie... Pretty tough to rack up 1000 mile passages on the Great Lakes, and yet those waters have produced many of the finest and toughest sailors in America... So, how can an organizer possibly arrive at a "Standard for Entry" that takes into meaningful account, the incredibly wide array of sailing experience people possess... So, make clear that it's for "Experienced" offshore/bluewater sailors - and that's where a skipper's personal responsibility first comes to the fore. Namely, being honest with himself whether or not he fits that category... NO ONE ELSE can make that determination... If you don't feel ready, you're not ready, simple as that...
I agree with everything you just said.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
Uhhh, perhaps you haven't heard - but the only "mellower" time of the year would be Hurricane Season...
Yeah, okay. You mean the one that officially starts on June 1 and ends on November 30* for 2014? So, you're saying anything between December 1 and May 31 is jut too dicey? Let's not be hysterical dude.

(*BTW - the SDR boats are leaving November 2. You're cool with that right? Hmm.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
In that case, sounds like the SDR is the one for you... Why on earth would you cede your own decision-making to the Adult Supervisors who will be flying to the BVIs on a commercial airliner in time to set up the after-party?

Save your money, $2K is a lot to spend for a few parties, free dockage for a few days, and a safety inspection... Buy Bill Seifert's book, instead...

If I'm gonna deliver a boat anywhere, I'd prefer to have it prepped to Seifert's standards, over the ISAF standards, every time...

Offshore Sailing: 200 Essential Passagemaking Tips: William Seifert, Daniel Spurr: 9780071374248: Amazon.com: Books
I already said I won't be doing the SDR. And I'll take a look at the book. Thanks. But I'm pretty happy with the ISAF regs.
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Quote:
Originally Posted by B.J. Porter View Post
Where are you grabbing that from, a quote from a press release? I don't see anything on the site that specifically says requirements to participate beyond quotes in press releases that talk about "Bluewater experience".
BJ - go to the SDR home page and scroll down to this:

"Benefits of Becoming a Dawg"

It's also in several press releases and other places.

Don't accuse me of making stuff up, then make me go find the proof for you. It's all over the place.

Quote:
Originally Posted by B.J. Porter View Post
Those...you need to think about what is being said before quoting them as gospel. They're not going to take my cousin as a skipper with his experience, nor are they going to look at overnighting to Maine as "Bluewater". Of course when talking to the media they aren't going to spell out rules. Anyone WITH blue water experience will know roughly what they are talking about. At a minimum they seem to be looking for a multi day passage well out of sight of land, where you are in control of your own vessel.

Go try and register for a rally. You fill out your basic information on the site and you will get an e-mail from Linda. You then discuss specifics of experience and crew and so forth with them to see if you've got experience enough for this.

Now, I don't know that they've rejected people, I suspect there are few as I think the idea that it is for "more experienced" folks will weed out more than a few people that end up in the 1500.

But if you talked to the organizers and said "Yeah, I overnighted on my friends boat to Maine once, now I want to sail my boat to the Caribbean with you" I expect you'd get a gentle suggestion to try the other rally.

There is a good reason to NOT lay out a hard and fast rule; because if you do someone that meets the letter of the rule but not the actual intent of the rule can raise much more of a stink if it is thought they are not ready for it.

As Jon rightly points out, every sailors qualifications are different. There isn't an easy list of hard and fast rules you can put on a web site to say "yup, you are in." But that the SDR is NOT for Newbies is made very clear, and in discussions with the organizers you will not get encouragement if you aren't ready.

As Jon also points out correctly...November is when you make the trip. Summer is hurricane season, you can go then but no insurance company will cover you in a named storm. You could go in April or May I suppose but that is kinds of backwards, and can still be snotty and cold out there too.
Okay - cool. So the Knowles are personally determining who has enough experience and is qualified and/or "safe" enough to go. That's "adult supervision".
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
BJ - go to the SDR home page and scroll down to this:

"Benefits of Becoming a Dawg"

It's also in several press releases and other places.

Don't accuse me of making stuff up, then make me go find the proof for you. It's all over the place.



Okay - cool. So the Knowles are personally determining who has enough experience and is qualified and/or "safe" enough to go. That's "adult supervision".
Well the Adult Supervision should make you happy then, you've been complaining about the lack of it. In all my dealings with the Knowles I've never gotten the sense that they'd take absolutely anyone that wanted to go.

That is the experience I had, we discussed my experience and Linda told me that she thought I had sufficient experience to do the rally with them.

It is their rally after all, and one point of the new Rally was to get away from all the regulatory overkill of the 1500. To do that you need to be able to put more onus on the skipper. In theory these people might have your back in a problem, or you might have to bail them out.
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

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Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
Yeah, okay. You mean the one that officially starts on June 1 and ends on November 30* for 2014? So, you're saying anything between December 1 and May 31 is jut too dicey? Let's not be hysterical dude.
Well, sure - if you want to head to the Caribbean for hurricane season in the spring, go for it... You'll certainly have to route to yourself, there seems to be a pretty good reason most boats will be headed in the opposite direction...

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
(*BTW - the SDR boats are leaving November 2. You're cool with that right? Hmm.)
What's the problem with that date, sounds good to me... Same date as the Adult Supervisors gave the green light to the 1500 fleet last fall, after all...

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
I already said I won't be doing the SDR. And I'll take a look at the book. Thanks. But I'm pretty happy with the ISAF regs.
Well, that's good... The ISAF regs would be easier, basically a check list, after all...

I happened to be aboard a boat that Bill Seifert inspected for the Bermuda Race about 8 years ago... Unbelievably thorough, the guy essentially performed a freakin' survey of the damn thing, passing ISAF muster would have been a piece of cake, in comparison...
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Quote:
Originally Posted by B.J. Porter View Post
Well the Adult Supervision should make you happy then, you've been complaining about the lack of it. In all my dealings with the Knowles I've never gotten the sense that they'd take absolutely anyone that wanted to go.

That is the experience I had, we discussed my experience and Linda told me that she thought I had sufficient experience to do the rally with them.

It is their rally after all, and one point of the new Rally was to get away from all the regulatory overkill of the 1500. To do that you need to be able to put more onus on the skipper. In theory these people might have your back in a problem, or you might have to bail them out.
Like I said earlier - if I were to join a rally, I'd join the C1500...for the reasons I stated. But I'm not looking for adult supervision from a rally. I'm learning a great deal from the racing skipper and crew I sail with. And I'm about ready to start skippering a few off-shore runs of my own this summer.

Look, maybe the Knowles are extremely picky and only allow skippers/boats that have your +1000 mile week+ passage under their keel. That would be cool. Then your assumption that everyone knows this is only for very experienced sailors is right, and the safety stuff isn't nearly as important. Of course, no one knows this. Right now, it's apparently completely up to the Knowles.

But, at the end of the day, I really don't think I'm too far off base. Change seems to be coming. This is from their site as well (posted in the last couple of months):

Quote:
The Salty Dawg Rally is a R.I. registered non-profit organization and for the next year will demonstrate its roll* as an educational organization by fostering and teaching seamanship, safe boat handling, navigation and other skills needed by blue water sailors.

Testimonial from George Day, Publisher, Blue Water Sailing magazine: “When Bill and Linda Knowles and I got talking about starting a new, free rally for cruisers that would help sailors get to and from the BVI each fall and spring, I knew they were onto a great idea. There was another rally out there but it was not free and not run in the true spirit of the cruising lifestyle...
(*I assume they mean "role" and not "biscuit" or "jive")

It'll be cool if they can be that educational organization they're talking about and remain free. If they put together a quality safety program, hell, I might even support them.
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
Save your money, $2K is a lot to spend for a few parties, free dockage for a few days, and a safety inspection... Buy Bill Seifert's book, instead...

If I'm gonna deliver a boat anywhere, I'd prefer to have it prepped to Seifert's standards, over the ISAF standards, every time...


Offshore Sailing: 200 Essential Passagemaking Tips: William Seifert, Daniel Spurr: 9780071374248: Amazon.com: Books
Thanks for the suggestion Jon. Looks like a good reference

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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
Well, sure - if you want to head to the Caribbean for hurricane season in the spring, go for it... You'll certainly have to route to yourself, there seems to be a pretty good reason most boats will be headed in the opposite direction...



What's the problem with that date, sounds good to me... Same date as the Adult Supervisors gave the green light to the 1500 fleet last fall, after all...



Well, that's good... The ISAF regs would be easier, basically a check list, after all...

I happened to be aboard a boat that Bill Seifert inspected for the Bermuda Race about 8 years ago... Unbelievably thorough, the guy essentially performed a freakin' survey of the damn thing, passing ISAF muster would have been a piece of cake, in comparison...
I'm curious...will you be delivering any SDR or C1500 boats back up?

BTW - I'm glad to know that Seifert's book is the way to guarantee that nothing bad happens on a passage. The ISAF checklist definitely can't do that. Thanks for the tip.
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

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Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
I'm curious...will you be delivering any SDR or C1500 boats back up?
Nope...

Not that I know of, anyway... I think rockDAWG is getting all the work, these days :-))

I've got a short trip starting this weekend, and things should begin to pick up around Easter... I hate the years when Easter falls late, that always compresses the schedule, as that it often the last time people plan to spend time on their boat before it comes north...
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