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  #841  
Old 08-25-2014
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Looking back all the rallies have had a bad year or two. Major issue for any rally or race is the weather. As far as I know this is not controlled by the organizers. As far as I know even the best be it Lee or Chris or anyone you care to name doesn't bat 1000.
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  #842  
Old 08-25-2014
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

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Originally Posted by outbound View Post
Looking back all the rallies have had a bad year or two. Major issue for any rally or race is the weather. As far as I know this is not controlled by the organizers. As far as I know even the best be it Lee or Chris or anyone you care to name doesn't bat 1000.
That's exactly right. That's why the running argument Jon and I have is a bit silly. But it's fun, man!
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  #843  
Old 08-26-2014
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

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Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post

Again, surely you understand you're asking the impossible. "Proving" that - any of the 1500's "Safety Standards" might have averted any of the difficulties suffered by the boats that called for S&R in last year's SDR - is kind of a silly thing to expect. Not really logical.
What's "not really logical" is your relentless insistence that the SDR should be adopting "Safety Standards" similar to the 1500, without offering any evidence whatsoever that such standards would have made a shred of difference in what transpired last November... Individual skippers ceding responsibility to a rally organizer for the preparation of their boats and crew, and the choice of their departure, is inherently preferable simply BECAUSE you say it is ???


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Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
\The only thing you CAN do is compare the two rallies for that same year. The C1500 did really well. The SDR was a disaster.
C'mon, it wasn't that bad... After all, at least nobody DIED... Unlike during the 2010 Caribbean 1500, or the 2011 NARC... And, the percentage of boats abandoned in last year's SDR still pales in comparison to the NARC a few years ago, or during the 1500 back in 1998...

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
Those are facts. The only thing left, then, is to compare where one greatly differs from the other. Back to my point above.
Actually, "the facts" are that all of the boats in last year's SDR that got into trouble in the Stream departed roughly 2 days after the 1500. Thus, they encountered entirely different conditions in the vicinity of the Stream than the 1500 fleet had. None of the SDR boats that made the same call on the departure time as the 1500 - and thus sailed in similar weather conditions - experienced major problems, or ever called for assistance... But, you already knew that, right? :-)

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
Did that boat have to call in the CG?
No, they did not... They may have been LUCKY, it would seem...

That boat pictured sailed in the 1500 in 2011... That was the first year the WCC was running the 1500. After a couple of postponements, they were all set to sail, despite the fact that what became TS Sean was starting to get organized halfway down the rhumbline... Chris Parker got it right that year, and many of the 1500 participants who had also engaged the services of Chris balked at the notion of departing when the 1500's routers were giving the green light. Finally, at the final skipper's meeting the morning of the re-scheduled departure date, the organizers acceded to the wishes of those heeding Chris Parker's cautions, and agreed to postpone the departure once again... I thought it was the right call, i think it could have been ugly if they had left that day...

Now, if you think that manner I pictured of stowing a tender for such a passage is a seamanlike one, well... then we probably have nothing further to discuss...

:-))

Last edited by JonEisberg; 08-26-2014 at 09:04 PM.
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  #844  
Old 08-27-2014
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

I find this thread so interesting, especially the discussion of newbies buying a 40 foot boat and wanting to go offshore. Wow!! That's crazy. We are buying a big boat because we like staying overnight and my husband is tall. Having said that, we know we need help with learning how to sail this boat, and we are going to be in a lake. And take it slow, moving up to bigger winds as we get more experienced, and having experienced sailor friends with us for the first year. We just talked about how many years it would take to even consider going coastal cruising, and we agreed that it would be at least five, and maybe ten. And we both agreed we are too old already, in our early 50s, to gain the kind of experience we would need to ever cross an ocean, or even do the Newport to Bermuda run on our own.

Cowards?? I don't think so. My husband was a firefighter with the FDNY, and risked his life hundreds of times, including on 9/11. I actually think that protects him from taking unnecessary risks - he has nothing to prove and doesn't care one whit if people think he is being too cautious. We are new to sailing and not too proud to ask friends to help and if they aren't available, to ask for professionals to teach us more.

I think it's not hard to stay out of trouble. Don't put yourself in situations that are far above your experience. A bit, sure, that's how we will learn, but to take a 35 foot boat out in 25 knot winds the first time out, that's kooky!!

Just a Coward's opinion.
Best,
Nancy
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  #845  
Old 08-28-2014
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nancyleeny View Post
I find this thread so interesting, especially the discussion of newbies buying a 40 foot boat and wanting to go offshore. Wow!! That's crazy. We are buying a big boat because we like staying overnight and my husband is tall. Having said that, we know we need help with learning how to sail this boat, and we are going to be in a lake. And take it slow, moving up to bigger winds as we get more experienced, and having experienced sailor friends with us for the first year. We just talked about how many years it would take to even consider going coastal cruising, and we agreed that it would be at least five, and maybe ten. And we both agreed we are too old already, in our early 50s, to gain the kind of experience we would need to ever cross an ocean, or even do the Newport to Bermuda run on our own.

Cowards?? I don't think so. My husband was a firefighter with the FDNY, and risked his life hundreds of times, including on 9/11. I actually think that protects him from taking unnecessary risks - he has nothing to prove and doesn't care one whit if people think he is being too cautious. We are new to sailing and not too proud to ask friends to help and if they aren't available, to ask for professionals to teach us more.

I think it's not hard to stay out of trouble. Don't put yourself in situations that are far above your experience. A bit, sure, that's how we will learn, but to take a 35 foot boat out in 25 knot winds the first time out, that's kooky!!

Just a Coward's opinion.
Best,
Nancy
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  #846  
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

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Originally Posted by aa3jy View Post
"We don't need no 'Stick'n training...."

The INTERVIEW WITH A CRUISER Project: 10 Questions for Bumfuzzle

..up set some of the guru cruiser experts
Whoa!! All I can say is that they are braver than we are.
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  #847  
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

"What are your impressions of the cruising community?
The cruising community surprised us a little bit with their pessimism and somewhat elitist attitude. That's generalizing greatly of course, but near to home it seemed most people we talked with didn't put much stock in our ability to sail a small boat around the world. Further afield the long term cruisers we ran into seemed to be in some sort of competition revolving around how long they'd been out cruising. We never really felt we meshed with the cruising community. That may have been due to our age at the time, or simply to our differences in perspectives."

..an interesting 'perspective...' Quoted
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  #848  
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

Quote:
Originally Posted by aa3jy View Post
"We don't need no 'Stick'n training...."

The INTERVIEW WITH A CRUISER Project: 10 Questions for Bumfuzzle

..up set some of the guru cruiser experts
Well, I'm not sure how relevant the introduction of The Legendary Bumfuzzles might be to this particular topic... They might never have attained their status as Cruising Icons had they selected the late fall trip from the east coats to the islands as their first offshore passage, after all... :-)

Certainly, this comment from that interview:

Quote:
It seems to us that with today's weather forecasting that is available by e-mail at any time that there is little reason to get caught out in seriously bad weather.
...sounds rather naive, given the fact that the passage these rallies undertake tends to fool even the best offshore weather routers in the business with a surprisingly high degree of regularity...
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

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Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
Well, I'm not sure how relevant the introduction of The Legendary Bumfuzzles might be to this particular topic... They might never have attained their status as Cruising Icons had they selected the late fall trip from the east coats to the islands as their first offshore passage, after all... :-)

Certainly, this comment from that interview:



...sounds rather naive, given the fact that the passage these rallies undertake tends to fool even the best offshore weather routers in the business with a surprisingly high degree of regularity...
Actually, it's pretty relevant. The Bumfuzzles literally had NO schedule - at all. The Rallies do. So, like we saw last year, the rally routers are trying to look for very narrow windows to get everyone through in time for the pig roast. One router got it right - the other got it wrong.

Maybe we should all learn something from the Bumfuzzles.
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  #850  
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

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Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
Actually, it's pretty relevant. The Bumfuzzles literally had NO schedule - at all.
Really? Damn, I could have sworn theirs was a typical Milk Run circumnavigation, in tune with the seasons... You know, arriving in the Marquesas along with everyone else, avoiding cyclone season across the Pacific like everyone else, planning their Indian Ocean crossing around the monsoon, getting out of the Med prior to the onset of winter, and sailing back across the Atlantic at the same time pretty much everyone else does it... No schedule whatsoever, huh? Are you suggesting they might be just as likely to undertake the route these rallies sail in the middle of hurricane season, as in the middle of winter, being as they are not constrained by 'schedules', or the dictates of their insurer, in any way?

Most everyone sails to a 'schedule', some are simply looser than others... (There are some pretty compelling reasons why the Bermuda Races are run in June, rather than August, or September.) But there are several ocean passages cruising sailors routinely undertake that have very narrow windows of opportunity. The passage between NZ and Fiji and Tonga, for example. Or the fall crossing of the Bay of Biscay from the British Isles/Baltic. As we saw this spring, even the window of opportunity back to the Azores from the Caribbean can be surprisingly brief... However, there are probably no popular passages that offer a more compressed time frame than the late fall trip from the Eastern seaboard to the islands... Especially, given the twin constraints of Hurricane season/insurance dictates, and the American holiday season, that are placed upon most who make the trip...

One of the primary reasons Bill & Linda Knowles were inspired to start the SDR, was when they heard of the departure date of the next Caribbean 1500, which they were planning to sail in once again. This was the first year the 1500 was run by the WCC, and the organizers being Brits, they might have lacked an appreciation for the importance of our Thanksgiving holiday. The date they'd chosen was around the 8th of November, if memory serves - which of course left virtually no wiggle room for crews to be back home for Turkey Day, in the event of any postponement, or even a slower than average passage...

Certainly, it can be argued that's not the way it should be... However, the simple reality is that it IS the way it is for most participants... The vast majority of boats are taking along friends/extra crew for this passage, but with the understanding that most everyone is committed to being back home for Thanksgiving. If you've ever been in Hampton, and sat thru a couple of postponements in departure due to weather, it's only a few days before a mass exodus of crewmembers will begin... In 2011, the most recent year I was there waiting along with everyone else, Charlie Doane himself was one of the many who felt compelled to bail out...

Quote:
I decided I had to pull the plug on my participation in this year’s Caribbean 1500 on Wednesday afternoon after rally HQ announced they were postponing the start once again until this morning. I was reluctant to do this, but the “squash zone” between my prospective arrival time in the BVI and the Thanksgiving holiday was getting a little too tight for comfort.

CARIBBEAN 1500 RALLY: They Leave Without Me | Sailfeed

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
So, like we saw last year, the rally routers are trying to look for very narrow windows to get everyone through in time for the pig roast.
You know, you might want to give your repeated mocking references to the SDR's pig roast a rest... In this instance, it's especially nonsensical relative to the point you're attempting to make, given that the infamous pig roast is held PRIOR to the fleet's departure from Hampton... :-)

And, you continue to cite the SDR for faults that the 1500 is even MORE guilty of... The 1500's awards dinner this year is scheduled for November 14, the SDR's final get-together not until the 21st... Gee, with both rallies estimating identical departure dates, which one do you suppose might feel more compelled to adhere to a 'scheduled' departure date, huh?

Last edited by JonEisberg; 08-28-2014 at 06:19 PM.
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