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  #81  
Old 11-09-2013
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

So the answer is taxation? That's pretty disturbing as what's really being said is that we should leave sailing to the wealthy.

It's sad to see this sentiment as it's so against what the spirit of the sea is.


Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
I have been saying and many disagreeing that this sort of situations is going to fall on the ones that take or/and are experienced. I bet that on these times of economic difficulties somebody is going to look at the numbers and costs and will stop with this nonsense. It is logical that the ones that benefice from SAR should the ones to pay for it, instead of the money coming from all tax payers.

That can be made trough mandatory insurance that obviously is going to be more expensive than the actual one. That would also auto regulate the boats that should or not go offshore and crew experience. I don't believe the premiums regarding SAR will be the same for all boats and some in what regards offshore would be simply not insurable. A certification that needs sailing experience will also lower premiums. They are not there to lose money.

Regards

Paulo
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  #82  
Old 11-09-2013
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

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Originally Posted by HeartsContent View Post
So the answer is taxation? That's pretty disturbing as what's really being said is that we should leave sailing to the wealthy.

It's sad to see this sentiment as it's so against what the spirit of the sea is.
All are paying for you to have SAR and they pay it with tax.

You mean the spirit of the sea is that the ones that don't do sail have to pay for the rescue of the ones that sail, I mean in what regards recreational activity?

An insurance, if the boat is fit for what is insured for, it is not necessarily expensive and represents only a small part of what you pay for boat maintenance and eventually marina costs, not mention cruising costs.

I don't see what this is to be wealthy or not. Having a cruising boat does not come cheap but it is affordable not only by wealthy people, that are a minority if we take into consideration all cruising boats.

Regards

Paulo
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  #83  
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

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Originally Posted by ScottUK View Post
So basically there should have been 2 pan pans. Don't think there is a need for aspersions for this particular rally. I do question a may day call for seasickness by a boat that has not been underway for very long. It appears they risked the safety of the CG for their own comfort. The report was that they were also taking on water and that might be the case so would be a reason for a mayday. However if that boat is later found still afloat I think the people should be charged for the rescue. Some might think this could have a chilling effect and it should because going offshore in a pleasure craft is a choice and people need to take personal responsibility. I think charging people for superfluous rescues would have a larger impact then any regulations.
If you are from the UK you know for certain the outcome of that incident where a racing boat was rammed by a cargo ship on a race? The sailor was condemned to pay a HUGE fine.

Without responsibility we will not have safe sailing and without people being held responsible for their acts responsibility will always be a question of opinion.

Regards

Paulo
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  #84  
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

I am aware of the fine but that was a different scenario. There was a guy in the UK this year who was 'rescued' a number of times. They finally took away his boat. They should have charged him for all the rescues as was my point in my last post.
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

The whole idea of who should cover costs is an interesting one. Freedom of the sea has never meant that everything is FREE. Anybody that owns a boat knows that. Saving your life once may be covered under the USCG rules. However, their are people that cry wolf when they should not and put others at jeopardy. Natural selection should come in at some point.

If you cruise the CF forum you may be reading about Scooberts planned trip south from NY to Florida. This is a very inexperienced sailor (mostly reading books on sail trim), with a new to him boat that has needed more than lots of work. He and his wife and sister in law (neither of which has any experience but are going to be standing watch while he sleeps) are leaving some time this week. They think it may take up to a week!

Yesterday he commented that he could not understand why the people in the rally are calling for help when it is only blowing 25Kts with 8' seas. He has done that in a 22' powerboat! He followed that with the fact that he knows he will not have any problem because a sister boat to his survived un scathed in 35' breaking waves. What do you think the odds are for this guy in 8' seas. CG please help....my wife is going to kill me
This guy should get the bill if he needs rescuing.
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  #86  
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

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Originally Posted by ScottUK View Post
I am aware of the fine but that was a different scenario. There was a guy in the UK this year who was 'rescued' a number of times. They finally took away his boat. They should have charged him for all the rescues as was my point in my last post.
I do not disagree, not with you neither with Tom. That as to do with responsibility and living in society. Someone that calls for a rescue when there is not a life threatening situation is irresponsible. Someone that sails offshore in a boat not meant to or in bad shape is irresponsible.

This is a question about responsibility an knowledge and the main issue is to know if the decisions should be free (like going to sail without knowing nothing about it or in an unsuitable boat) and later people be held responsible for their actions or if should be taken preventive measures regarding people going to the sea without knowing what they are doing and in anything that floats.

Clearly in Europe they have gone to preventive measures. On most countries the boats have to be insured and RCD says exactly what is the type of boat that can be used in each situation. Defines minimum requirements regarding the boats that can be used offshore and the boats have to be certified by the manufacturer. On top of that the boats have pass regular inspections and it is not only necessary to have a boat that is authorized to do that but also to have all the equipment needed for that.

Even if you have all that is needed in what regards material, you will need a licence that supposedly says that you are competent. An Oceanic licence can only obtained after several years and several other licences that include not only knowledge but practice.

I am not saying that this is a perfect system or the right way but certainly will prevent a crazy guy that decides to set sail for the horizon with a derelict, risking the lives of others and cost a fortune in SAR operations to be paid by all.

The other way to do it is maintaining apparently freedom without any limitations and make mandatory for the ones that sail a SAR insurance that will pay an eventual rescue. Insurance companies will take car of making impossible mad situations. They will charge according to the risk and for the ones that the risk is too high, they simply will not find an insurance and will not be able to put their live or others lives in jeopardy.

Take your pick

Regards

Paulo
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

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Originally Posted by PCP View Post

Clearly in Europe they have gone to preventive measures. On most countries the boats have to be insured and RCD says exactly what is the type of boat that can be used in each situation. Defines minimum requirements regarding the boats that can be used offshore and the boats have to be certified by the manufacturer. On top of that the boats have pass regular inspections and it is not only necessary to have a boat that is authorized to do that but also to have all the equipment needed for that.

Even if you have all that is needed in what regards material, you will need a licence that supposedly says that you are competent. An Oceanic licence can only obtained after several years and several other licences that include not only knowledge but practice.

Paulo
In Texas, we call that the nanny state and many argue it will lead to the decline of the species.
John
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

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In Texas, we call that the nanny state and many argue it will lead to the decline of the species.
John
You mean living in society or someone be held responsible for his actions?

Regards

Paulo
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

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Originally Posted by capta View Post
There was no luck involved; it was seamanship and discipline that got him and his 23 men through..
I certainly hear where you are coming from. There is a saying something about experienced people make their own luck.

There is a serious risk however because their are lots of kinds of luck.
An experienced person is always stacking the deck in their favor and because of that most of the time they will be "lucky".

The risk is that someone thinks they it all figured out because they are now "experienced".
There are bad luck scenarios that can hit us that even the most prudent person would not have anticipated nor been able to handle. Maybe not many but enough to keep us all humble.

Just surviving the drive to the grocery store has a significant element of luck in it.
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Old 11-09-2013
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Re: Rallies Gone Wrong

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Originally Posted by ccriders View Post
In Texas, we call that the nanny state and many argue it will lead to the decline of the species.
John
We, up in the sticks (aka most of) NY call it the same. Europe seems to be much more willing to accept intrusive regulation. It's a cultural thing.
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