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  #91  
Old 12-30-2013
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Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

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Originally Posted by capt vimes View Post
I wager that you are a no-thinking-non-educated-i-know-it-all-nonetheless-guy...
Geee, I'z REEL sorry I's such a dummy. I fergot I'z takin' to such smart peeple.

Oh, I'z almost fergot dis;
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  #92  
Old 12-30-2013
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Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

Why do all the threads that Paulo gets involved with end up like this. He calls himself a teacher but I couldn't imagine what it would have been like to sit in on one of his classes.
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  #93  
Old 12-30-2013
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Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

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Originally Posted by capt vimes View Post
They are not - sorry...
Do not come with the bleeding UCI regulations from 2000...
What this organisition was about, is protecting the - at that time predominated italian manifactures from getting overrun by other countries...
Is it really in the meaning of advancing bycicle development by allowing only a diamont frame?
No disc brakes for street bikes?

What i have standing here beside me is a Trek Y66... And if i would have found a Zipp, i would have payed almost any price... Those bikes are now more than ten years old, but they are better in any respect than the new stuff... Specialized has last year produced a triathlon bike which is completely outside the stupid UCI rules... And it does not break!

What would be your suggestion to bring off shore racing to a new level and by that increase saftey for everybody out there?
You need to push it, otherwise development is not happening...
Wow, what a friendly response.
I think there was quite a bit of jingoism associated with the reasoning attributed to the UCI, but when a bicycle frame comes apart during a mass sprint (French built) or wheels collapse amidst the peloton (an American modification of French, Swiss and Japanese components) there is a clear and present danger to the competitors and it was appropriate for the UCI to concern themselves. Their actions were instructive - they did not proscribe any specific technologies, they prescribed a minimum weight requirement, one that could not be met by the Italian bike industry at that time.
Development continued resulting in some magnificent bicycles as you noted. Yet these achievements were attained in the recreational market. I don't think anyone ever competed on a Trek carbon fiber URT "Y" bike, except me, of course. Using a 2013 tri bike to refute a 199? UCI ruling is a red herring, and the "y" bike is long gone, a victim of design evolutions in the recreational market, and you can probably get a Zipp bike on EBay and bob, weave and waddle your way down the road.
But more to the point, your saying these extreme keel designs don't have problems is wishful thinking and patently wrong. It is probably more accurate to say all keels have problems, but keels falling off seems to be unique to these extreme fins with giant bulbs attached.
John
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  #94  
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Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

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Originally Posted by pdqaltair View Post
Keep it up Paulo, we're rooting for you.

Personally, I can't imagine a world where people didn't push limits in every endeavor. Some I participate in (ice climbing), others I only watch (extreme sailing), some I couldn't care less about (auto racing). But I'm glad these people exist and are free to adventure.

A fund to cover rescue costs? That is an interesting idea, though working out the details is a mess. I'm not sure the racers are at greater risk than many less competitive fools; we sure get a lot of recreational rescues due to shear stupidity.
My thoughts, as well...

What makes the objection to the perceived costs/taxpayer burden of these rescues so amusing, is how they pale into virtual insignificance in comparison to the numbers of rescues of recreational and commercial vessels in inshore or coastal waters...

Sure, these dramatic rescues far offshore, in horrific conditions, get all the attention... And yet, hardly a day goes by in America, where CG assets are not diverted to much more 'mundane' incidents... If those who are so concerned about cost-savings, budget constrants, and so on are REALLY serious, they would be calling instead for further regulation, mandatory rescue insurance, or whatever for the type of boating the overwhelming percentage most of us do - namely, near-shore or COASTAL sailing, because that's where most of the 'action' occurs...

Just a few recent examples from here in the NE...

Just last week, someone drove a 47' sailboat straight into the north jetty at Cape May Inlet, the boat eventually breaking up on the beach...

Just before Christmas, a CG helo was sent from Atlantic City to VIRGINIA, to rescue some guy who had run aground 300 YARDS FROM SHORE...

Rough Christmas Eve waters prompt two rescues from Chesapeake Bay - baltimoresun.com

A couple of weeks ago, a CG helo was dispatched to pluck a couple from a 22-footer, aground in waters adjacent to the freakin' ICW... In water too shallow for a CG 25-footer to maneuver alongside??? Hell, the people could have WALKED over to the CG boat, for chrissakes... :-)

Coast Guard rescues 2 after sailboat ran aground | Associated Press | Elizabeth City

And, as far as the 'cutting edge' nature of these boats is concerned, I'm old enough to remember when folks thought it was foolhardy to venture offshore in a Cal 40... :-)

Not to mention, a time when SPORTS ILLUSTRATED wrote about Ocean Racing, or when a young Ted Turner was known only as a sailor :-)

The Cal-40 at left is a stock boat right off the dealer's - 03.28.66 - SI Vault

Hell, I'll bet Bob Perry could entertain us, with some stories about the abuse he suffered, due to such a 'radical' departure in offshore yacht design he made with his Valiant 40... :-)









I would have taken this issues to bed with me as a kid, reading them over, and over... A guy like Bernard Stamm would have been an absolute GOD to me back then, as I'm sure he is to legions of young dreamers, today... Yes, I'm thankful that such people exist, and are allowed to do what they do, and it saddens me to hear talk that perhaps such endeavors "should no longer be allowed", because organizers may not be able to guarantee absolute safety...


One thing that has surprised me about this thread, is the sort of 'linearity" of much of the thinking expressed, exemplified by the notion that a designer/builder should know with absolute precision where the tradeoff between speed and 'unbreakability' lies, and that a failure like Stamm's boat suffered should never, EVER occur... (I still think that the repair made after the earlier collision and near loss of the boat likely contributed to this failure, but most appear to be ignoring that possibility) This is RACING we're talking about, after all, and trying to pinpoint that fine line is generally the essence of the game... These guys are not all that different from test pilots, and as much as we all might respect a guy with The Right Stuff like Chuck Yeager, not even all of his flights were unmitigated successes...

If there's one thing I've learned from my years on the water, it can only be summed up by one phrase: Well, "You never know..." No guarantees, sometimes sh_t just happens despite the utmost in preparation and seamanship... But anyone expecting otherwise should probably not put to sea, or at least stay within sight of shore, or within range of a CG helo out of Atlantic City, or Elizabeth City...

Much of my life has life has involved motor racing, so I'm likely to have a different take on this, than most... I'm accustomed to seeing state of the art machines fail, sometimes with dreadful consequences... You just never know... And, the only ones who know, for sure, are those who never take any risk...

Arguably the greatest racing driver ever, 7-time World Champion Michael Schumacher raced in over 300 Grands Prix, winning 91 of them... The risks taken during the course of such a career are incalculable... And yet, tonight he lies in a coma in a hospital in Grenoble, the result of a comparatively banal skiing accident during a family vacation...

You never know...

Doctors have grim outlook on Michael Schumacher's condition - Racing - SI.com
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  #95  
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Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

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Originally Posted by Dog Ship View Post
Why do all the threads that Paulo gets involved with end up like this. He calls himself a teacher but I couldn't imagine what it would have been like to sit in on one of his classes.
I think it was spelled out in a descriptive comment I received in a P.M. a while back - "Paulo, the worlds greatest authority on anything sailing".
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  #96  
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Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

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Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
These guys are not all that different from test pilots, and as much as we all might respect a guy with The Right Stuff like Chuck Yeager, not even all of his flights were unmitigated successes...
In his test pilot days Yeager attended funerals virtually monthly. The streets at Edwards AFB are named after his colleagues. Life was cheaper then and such things were driven by Cold War and nuclear Armageddon fears as well.

Racing toy sailboats is a bit different.
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  #97  
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Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

Hahahaha..could you forward that one to me please?
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Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

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Originally Posted by SloopJonB View Post
I think it was spelled out in a descriptive comment I received in a P.M. a while back - "Paulo, the worlds greatest authority on anything sailing".
Yes, and us mere mortals sailing old slow boats far, far from home.
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  #99  
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Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

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Originally Posted by SloopJonB View Post
.. "Paulo, the worlds greatest authority on anything sailing".
Thank you very much for your kind comment but I really don't know that much. We have a saying that is just right to express the situation regarding the subject that has been discussed in this thread and my humble contribute:

"Among the blinds the one-eyed man is king"

Regards

Paulo
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Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

Apparently the person who PM'd me was correct.
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