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  #101  
Old 12-30-2013
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Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

I guess this is a cultural difference. I expect professionals in a highly showcased endeavor to cover their own poop. I don't expect the CG to pull my butt out of the fire when things get bad but will be real pleased if they do.
Think on our side of the pond there is increasingly too much reliance on technology and the " nanny" and on your side too much willingness to cede to the" better judgement " of the nanny restricting freedom.
As I said before I'm a huge fan of these races. Much more so than the A.C.. I think the purpose is to push the envelope -of skill,endurance,design and materials. But I still think they should cover all aspects of this commercial enterprise given it's unusual that there is a race when at least one rescue is not required.
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  #102  
Old 12-30-2013
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Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Thank you very much for your kind comment but I really don't know that much. We have a saying that is just right to express the situation regarding the subject that has been discussed in this thread and my humble contribute:

"Among the blinds the one-eyed man is king"

Regards

Paulo

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  #103  
Old 12-30-2013
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Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

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Originally Posted by Dog Ship View Post
Why do all the threads that Paulo gets involved with end up like this. He calls himself a teacher but I couldn't imagine what it would have been like to sit in on one of his classes.
I think it would be fun, with some terrific give-and-take push-pull rip-snorting hair-pulling no-punches-pulled lollapaloozas of discusions. We might not settle anything, but we'd have a heck of a good time trying.

It wasn't Paulo who lowered the tone of the thread with ad hominem attacks; I don't think it fair to blame him for the actions of one of his proponents.
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  #104  
Old 12-31-2013
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Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

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Originally Posted by ccriders View Post
Wow, what a friendly response.
I think there was quite a bit of jingoism associated with the reasoning attributed to the UCI, but when a bicycle frame comes apart during a mass sprint (French built) or wheels collapse amidst the peloton (an American modification of French, Swiss and Japanese components) there is a clear and present danger to the competitors and it was appropriate for the UCI to concern themselves. Their actions were instructive - they did not proscribe any specific technologies, they prescribed a minimum weight requirement, one that could not be met by the Italian bike industry at that time.
Development continued resulting in some magnificent bicycles as you noted. Yet these achievements were attained in the recreational market. I don't think anyone ever competed on a Trek carbon fiber URT "Y" bike, except me, of course. Using a 2013 tri bike to refute a 199? UCI ruling is a red herring, and the "y" bike is long gone, a victim of design evolutions in the recreational market, and you can probably get a Zipp bike on EBay and bob, weave and waddle your way down the road.
But more to the point, your saying these extreme keel designs don't have problems is wishful thinking and patently wrong. It is probably more accurate to say all keels have problems, but keels falling off seems to be unique to these extreme fins with giant bulbs attached.
John
You mention the stupid UCI regulations and even do not know what they are about?
Here is something to read for you:
http://www.uci.ch/Modules/BUILTIN/ge...g4OTM&LangId=1

Sure enough - the keel design is brought to the limits in those boats... It is the combination of thin blades and canting mechanism that let these designs snap from time to time...
It is a race boat - what else to say here?
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  #105  
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Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dog Ship
Why do all the threads that Paulo gets involved with end up like this. He calls himself a teacher but I couldn't imagine what it would have been like to sit in on one of his classes.
They do not. Paulo has strong opinions, which results in a good debate. He contributes in a good and constructive way with his views, which he also explains. From the tone of his contributions one gets the impression that he actually has been (are?) working as a teacher.
Paulos thread on interesting boats is one of the most interesting on SN, which can be seen eg from the number of views.

Arguments like yours above is usually used when lacking arguments on the subject, then it is easier to attac the person instead.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SloopJonB View Post
I think it was spelled out in a descriptive comment I received in a P.M. a while back - "Paulo, the worlds greatest authority on anything sailing".
Disappointing to see Jon acting on this level. Actually expected better as Jon many times have had substantial contributions. Not here, obviously.

/J

Last edited by Jaramaz; 12-31-2013 at 06:02 AM.
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  #106  
Old 12-31-2013
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Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

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Originally Posted by manatee View Post
I think it would be fun, with some terrific give-and-take push-pull rip-snorting hair-pulling no-punches-pulled lollapaloozas of discusions. We might not settle anything, but we'd have a heck of a good time trying...
Thank you. I take the opportunity to wish you and all the took part on this colorful debate a very good new year.

Regarding me as a teacher, yes I have been one for almost 35 years (among other professional activities) on related art subjects. I am retired now and I miss the kids.

I gave classes (depending on the years) to kids from 9 to 18 years old and I can say that I was regarded as a popular teacher, but also a demanding one. Funny thing is that the ones that showed more respect and appreciation for me were the bad asses

Regarding fun, the better year was a year were I decided to try with 9 to 12 years old students some new pedagogic theories (at the time) about a non-directive approach. It was needed some nerve because I was being evaluated as a teacher that year and have monitored classes. Basically I passed one year giving classes without saying no to anything a student proposed (unless we changed is mind) and surfing on student ideas as a way to develop contents. That was fun!!!!...and I learned a huge amount in what regards group psychologie and personal interaction.

Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 12-31-2013 at 10:27 AM.
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  #107  
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Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

Hmmm, a new day, and a new CG SAR mission...

Well, at least we can all take comfort that our taxpayer dollars aren't going towards a search for some flimsy raceboat :-)

Coast Guard searching for 2 men aboard missing sailboat off Texas coast | khou.com Houston

Hopefully, this one will turn out like so many of these deals do - sailors "lost", or "missing", due to an inability to recharge a smartphone...
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  #108  
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Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

Quote:
Originally Posted by capt vimes View Post
You mention the stupid UCI regulations and even do not know what they are about?
Here is something to read for you:
http://www.uci.ch/Modules/BUILTIN/ge...g4OTM&LangId=1

Sure enough - the keel design is brought to the limits in those boats... It is the combination of thin blades and canting mechanism that let these designs snap from time to time...
It is a race boat - what else to say here?
They have a controlling entity on IMOCA class that plays the part of UCI on what regards regulations and safety rules. the IMOCA technical committee works on the advice of the better NAs (with experience in solo racing boats) and on the advise of the best solo sailors to perfect their boats. That is what has allowed the Open 60's to be bettered all the time, not only in what regards speed but also seaworthiness and safety.

For instance next year the keels and the masts will be standard and the same for all. They want to advance faster on reliability in what regards those two elements. With all masts and keels identical the designers would have a much bigger feedback in what regards to detect and solve problems. The solutions chosen were the more reliable ones to date.

Some interesting information about all this process:

"IMOCA ratifies the new rules that apply to the new boats:

With an overwhelming majority (85%), the General Meeting on 17 December 2013 validated the final adjustments enabling the decisions made back in April to be ratified. ...

There was an urgent need to set out the new rules, despite the complexity of the subject. The stakes were clear: to leave the door open to innovations enabling the new boats to be competitive, without putting the existing craft out of the game. All this had to involve specifications that required increased safety, reliability and simplicity for stabilized budgets.

This massive undertaking began in January 2011, when IMOCA tasked Eric Levet (Lombard firm) with conducting a study into the evolution of the class measurement...

This whole process adhered to an open approach dating back to 2008 and backed by Luc Talbourdet, President of the Class and Vincent Riou, President of the Technical Committee.
..
In April 2009, at the end of the Vendée Globe in question, under the presidency of Dominique Wavre, IMOCA ratified modifications to the class measurement which, in part, took up those proposed some nine months earlier: limiting the Righting Moment, standardizing the mast height, increasing the angle of capsize, increasing the solidity of the keels through the application of safety factors and minimum characteristics, implementation of tests on masts and keels and limiting the number of appendages.

These decisions contributed to making the fleet more uniform, at least as far as the new boats were concerned. Though these put a limit to the extremes, particularly in terms of power, the performances of our boats continued to increase. The courses sailed by François Gabart and Armel Le Cléach in the last Vendée Globe testify to this.

The IMOCA skippers also know that this kind of performance doesn't come free. It is achieved through an increase in costs and risk taking. The desire to keep the best possible handle on these two parameters has become a desire shared by everyone involved. All the actions carried out over the past two years have been heading in this direction and are accompanied by a real desire to preserve the sport and hence the uniformity of the fleet.

Jointly achieving these goals is reminiscent of achieving the impossible: how can you reconcile the old and new boats? How do you maintain a true sense of competitiveness? How do you combine sport, adventure and technology?

The conclusion has been a long time coming and we should like to thank everyone who has contributed to this tedious work, to the string of administrators who have kept everything on track, to the technical committees, who have put a great deal of effort into coming up with solutions, the various naval architect firms who have shared their opinions with us, Finot-Conq, Owen-Clarke, and over recent months VPLP-Verdier, Farr Yacht Design and Juan K Yacht Design, who have supported IMOCA in putting together the final proposals presented at the General Meeting by the Executive Committee.

The parameters of the class measurement we have retained are the fruit of a collective approach where the experiences and skills of each person have been combined to come up with this end result.
..
On 17 December IMOCA validated the following decisions:

For greater reliability and better cost control:

the keel and the masts are standardised,
limited use of ‘exotic’ materials.

For greater simplicity:

the 10° criteria (maximum heeling angle in class measurement configuration, in a static condition) has been removed, thus making possible ballast tanks more viable;
....."


Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 12-31-2013 at 11:12 AM.
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  #109  
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Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
Hmmm, a new day, and a new CG SAR mission...

Well, at least we can all take comfort that our taxpayer dollars aren't going towards a search for some flimsy raceboat :-)

Coast Guard searching for 2 men aboard missing sailboat off Texas coast | khou.com Houston

Hopefully, this one will turn out like so many of these deals do - sailors "lost", or "missing", due to an inability to recharge a smartphone...
Well, that's a new story, hope it turns out well for the two, and the Coast Guard too. Gulf weather has been snotty and cold but not lethal so this may end well (please).

And I, too, am happy to get into it with Paulo, he sometimes wonders if I "do not understand" certain stuff. Sometimes I do, and sometimes I don't. But it's a fair and civil discussion.
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  #110  
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Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

Quote:
Originally Posted by outbound View Post
I guess this is a cultural difference. I expect professionals in a highly showcased endeavor to cover their own poop. I don't expect the CG to pull my butt out of the fire when things get bad but will be real pleased if they do.
Think on our side of the pond there is increasingly too much reliance on technology and the " nanny" and on your side too much willingness to cede to the" better judgement " of the nanny restricting freedom.
As I said before I'm a huge fan of these races. Much more so than the A.C.. I think the purpose is to push the envelope -of skill,endurance,design and materials. But I still think they should cover all aspects of this commercial enterprise given it's unusual that there is a race when at least one rescue is not required.
Well I don't think it has anything to with a "nanny state," but technology has made it easier to call the CG. You can pull your trigger on the eperb and get help literally anywhere on the planet. (OK there may be some areas that don't have satellite coverage, but I won't be going there!) So people go out perhaps with the expectation of being saved. This makes it so people who go out less prepared can call for help. In the past they just sailed off and were never heard from again. Many may have been thought to have reached the Pacific islands or other destinations and just did not have a way to contact home.

Heck even in the 70's lots of people went off shore without even a VHF radio, let alone a SSB or satellite phone.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
Hmmm, a new day, and a new CG SAR mission...

Well, at least we can all take comfort that our taxpayer dollars aren't going towards a search for some flimsy raceboat :-)

Coast Guard searching for 2 men aboard missing sailboat off Texas coast | khou.com Houston

Hopefully, this one will turn out like so many of these deals do - sailors "lost", or "missing", due to an inability to recharge a smartphone...
Sounds like another case of someone who bought a cheap boat too far away from home. It was the new owners first time in the Gulf.
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