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  #111  
Old 12-31-2013
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Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
Hmmm, a new day, and a new CG SAR mission...

Well, at least we can all take comfort that our taxpayer dollars aren't going towards a search for some flimsy raceboat :-)

Coast Guard searching for 2 men aboard missing sailboat off Texas coast | khou.com Houston

Hopefully, this one will turn out like so many of these deals do - sailors "lost", or "missing", due to an inability to recharge a smartphone...
They're safe.

Boaters who went missing off Texas coast return to port safe | khou.com Houston
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  #112  
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Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

Capt vines,
Thanks for the link to the current UCI rules, it has been a long time since I've read them. I think you must realize that most of these rules were written to protect the integrity of bicycle racing as it has been known for more than a hundred years and to exclude recumbent style bicycles which rightly are raced by those that wish in races promoted by the human-powered vehicle association (IHPVA). If your interests are in these types of developments, then go there. There is no need to bash the UCI for establishing safety specifications that might exclude your favorite style of bicycle. And you have to recognize the huge advancements made in bicycle technology since Eddy Mercks smoked the peloton and UCIs honest efforts to keep the focus on the athlete, not the bike.
John
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  #113  
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Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
For instance next year the keels and the masts will be standard and the same for all. They want to advance faster on reliability in what regards those two elements. With all masts and keels identical the designers would have a much bigger feedback in what regards to detect and solve problems. The solutions chosen were the more reliable ones
Paulo
Now that is a step in the right direction. Your whole message is a good read and my understanding from it is that the association recognizes there have been technical problems that need to be addressed and that those problems are so complex the association needs to establish controls over innovations.
Thanks,
John
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  #114  
Old 12-31-2013
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Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

There are so many things that are misleading and misinformed in this thread, the internet as a whole should be ashamed.
PCP – you gave someone advice earlier in this thread to not comment about the open 60 b/c they didn’t know anything about the boat. I’m going to give you the same advice when discussing Top Fuel dragsters. Your comment that they’re all about brute strength tells just how little you know about the sport.

I’m going to make some general statements about top level sailboat racing. These are my opinions based on what I’ve learned from racing on a grand prix boat and following the VOR, Vende and other offshore races.

1- One of the biggest problems with offshore racing is trying to calculate the loads a boat will experience during the voyage. Just like the AC, vende and VOR boats are designed and built to withstand “typical” conditions for that body of water during that time of year. As we all know, this isn’t always the case. So stuff breaks.
2- The other issue is everyone is trying to push very hard while racing. These boats don’t exactly depower right away when they heel more. Hull form, dagger boards, and canting keels keep them powered up to the point of them breaking if you don’t take your foot off the gas pedal.
3- To keep the boats light, most are underbuilt on purpose. For example, a typical safety margin for a cruising boat would be in the 4-5 times the expected load. For a VOR boat, they spec out equipment that has a safety factor of 1.2 x the expected load. Not a lot of room for error if you fall off a wave at 20 kts.
4- None of this has anything to do with what happened in this incident b/c the boat wasn’t powered up or racing. Heavily reefed on a delivery it got caught in a storm and thankfully no one died. This boat (not the open 60 platform) clearly had some structural issues that weren’t caught on its last inspection and the damn front tried to fall off. The beauty of carbon, little to no warning before it fails completely.

There, I’ve said my piece. Happy new year everyone.
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  #115  
Old 12-31-2013
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Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

Quote:
Originally Posted by zz4gta View Post
There are so many things that are misleading and misinformed in this thread, the internet as a whole should be ashamed.
PCP – you gave someone advice earlier in this thread to not comment about the open 60 b/c they didn’t know anything about the boat. I’m going to give you the same advice when discussing Top Fuel dragsters. Your comment that they’re all about brute strength tells just how little you know about the sport.
Yes you are right about not being interested or not knowing about dragsters but I was not trying to take way the technical achievement of taking a huge power from an engine for some seconds. Call it brutal acceleration on a straight line or whatever it is more adequate. Dragsters and Dragster races are something that has a big appeal to Americans but very little to Europeans that prefer more skillful types of races, like F1 or WRC.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zz4gta View Post
3- To keep the boats light, most are underbuilt on purpose. For example, a typical safety margin for a cruising boat would be in the 4-5 times the expected load. For a VOR boat, they spec out equipment that has a safety factor of 1.2 x the expected load.
I agree with your take but this can be misleading even if generically right with the exception that the load factor is far superior to 1.2.

It gives the idea that a boat like the Open 60 is more fragile than a cruising boat in what regards the loads that it can take when it is the opposite even if the load factor is smaller and that simply because the boat was designed to take loads hugely bigger.

Those boats are designed to race at over 20K in some of the worst seas of the planet (high latitudes), the loads that the boat has to take and is designed to take have no comparison with the loads for what is designed the typical cruising boat, meaning 8/10k speed on average sea conditions, not the ones you find on high latitudes.

In the end, even with a smaller safety factor regarding the loads that the boat is designed to meet, an offshore racer like a VOR 70 or a Open 60 is much stronger than the typical cruiser. It has to be.

Have a nice year

Regards

Paulo

Edit: I knew that the safety margin was much bigger that 1.2 but I did not want to give any numbers without checking: The ones from the keel are mandatory to all. They were of 4.1 and they passed this year to 5.
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Last edited by PCP; 12-31-2013 at 05:31 PM.
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  #116  
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Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ccriders View Post
Now that is a step in the right direction. Your whole message is a good read and my understanding from it is that the association recognizes there have been technical problems that need to be addressed and that those problems are so complex the association needs to establish controls over innovations.
Thanks,
John
John, not a step on the right direction but one more step on the right direction. They have been improving the boats these way for the last 15 years with the help of some of the best NAs.

Have a nice new year.

Best regards

Paulo
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  #117  
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Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

Well, that's good news, of course...

Hopefully, the Coasties might have at least gotten some decent training out of all that aviation fuel they pissed away... :-)

I'm only half-kidding, actually... There is an argument to be made, that there actually can be some benefit to be derived from the sort of high seas rescues that Australia, for example, has been called upon to perform:

From a report of the Australian Navy's rescue of Yann Elies from GENERALI during the 2008 Vendee, after he broke his leg in the Southern Ocean west of Cape Leeuwin:

Quote:

There is often an outcry by politicians in Australia seeking to make capital out of what they claim is unnecessary taxpayer expense, but the Australian military authorities and civilian rescue organisations have said that cases like this offer perfect training exercises at less cost than those which they have, in any case, to organise.

French yachtsman rescued by Australian navy - Sailing - More Sports - The Independent
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  #118  
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Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

PCP - NA's are still having trouble estimating the dynamic loads on offshore sailboats (hence the change from 4:1 to 5:1). You listed a well published safety factor. But I'm pretty sure the rest of the boat is not built to a 4:1 safety factor. You're very good at picking and choosing snippets of information that support your argument. Do you have any personal experience onboard an all carbon race boat? Race boats have always been lightly built unless they're under a rating system that gives heavy boats an advantage, like MORC. The open 60's, class 40's, and even the VOR boats require highly skilled sailors to get them home in one piece. Even if they're going breakneck speeds.

What you chose to not address what my point about item #4. This boat should not have broke. PERIOD. It was well under powered in the conditions and was either an oversight of the sailors (very likely on a delivery where everyone is not 'dialed in') or it was a build issue/ inspection issue.

Let me make it clear, I'm not hear to say that open 60's are unsafe boats, but they don't hold the same safety factors as a Hanse or Hinckley. This is an acceptable risk as I see it. However, you cannot say that carbon race boats don't have failures on a pretty regular basis. And part of this is due to the thin layup, and lack of historical data in regards to cyclical loads on a rough sea. They're still working out the details.
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  #119  
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Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

the details in my opinion, are that they are race boats, pushed to limits by skilled skippers pushing THEIR limits...

is this not so?

its so easy I dont understand why people love quoting publications, snippets, articles etc...

the quote about a formula 1 car not being able to handle a dakar is absolutely true

different use, having said that I have seen a yamaha race bike carve sand dunes in chile like a surfer in hawaii does, so it can be done...

that doesnt mean its right....

race boats are light and purpose built...why would anyone beleive that they are stronger or sturdier than say a westail 32? really?

(better "race designed" sure...more efficient design absolutely, better intended and narrower purpose of course!)



happy new year guys

peace
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  #120  
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Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

Quote:
Originally Posted by zz4gta View Post
PCP - NA's are still having trouble estimating the dynamic loads on offshore sailboats (hence the change from 4:1 to 5:1). You listed a well published safety factor.
It is not a published factor but a mandatory one. All boats have to have at least that safety coefficient.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zz4gta View Post
But I'm pretty sure the rest of the boat is not built to a 4:1 safety factor. You're very good at picking and choosing snippets of information that support your argument.
That is an unfounded statement. I do not find snippets of information, I found my opinions. The only one available is that one, the others are obviously a well kept secret.

There is a good reason for that one to be a mandatory coefficient and not any other and the reason is that the keels have been by far the most fragile part of that boat (with the masts). That is why there are a mandatory safety coefficient for keels and not for any other boat part. Hulls have been particularly resistant and did not show any particular weakness being Stamm’s case an exception in many years in what regards a catastrophic breakage.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zz4gta View Post
Race boats have always been lightly built unless they're under a rating system that gives heavy boats an advantage, like MORC. …
Of course, but contrary to other offshore racers these boats are designed to race a non stop circumnavigation sailed most of the time in high latitudes. If they don’t finish they don’t win.

This is not the kind of offshore boat that makes a Fastnet or a Sydney-Hobart and then are thoroughly verified to see if all is alright or if something needs fixing. On these ones that only happens after a 40 000nm circumnavigation and for that reason they have to be much stronger than the typical offshore carbon racer. That has a reflex in what regards the applied safety coefficient, that is naturally bigger than on racers that race incomparably shorter races, even if offshore ones.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zz4gta View Post
What you chose to not address what my point about item #4: This boat should not have broke. PERIOD. It was well under powered in the conditions and was either an oversight of the sailors (very likely on a delivery where everyone is not 'dialed in') or it was a build issue/ inspection issue. ……

Item #4: None of this has anything to do with what happened in this incident b/c the boat wasn’t powered up or racing. Heavily reefed on a delivery it got caught in a storm and thankfully no one died. This boat (not the open 60 platform) clearly had some structural issues that weren’t caught on its last inspection and the damn front tried to fall off.
That one I do not understand. You have answered yourself that question: “This boat (not the open 60 platform) clearly had some structural issues that weren’t caught on its last inspection”. Probably Jon is right and that previous delamination (hole) that boat suffered produced structural problems that were not detected neither repaired even if the boat made 60 or 70 000nm after that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zz4gta View Post
Let me make it clear, I'm not hear to say that open 60's are unsafe boats, but they don't hold the same safety factors as a Hanse or Hinckley. This is an acceptable risk as I see it. However, you cannot say that carbon race boats don't have failures on a pretty regular basis. And part of this is due to the thin layup, and lack of historical data in regards to cyclical loads on a rough sea. They're still working out the details.
In fact carbon boats can be much stronger than boats built with any other materials and the failures on carbon racers have nothing to do with the material itself but with the fact (as you say) that they are built as light as possible.

There are cruising boats built in carbon and there will be more in the future.

The technology exist for many years and is used not only in boats but cars and airplanes. The details have long been worked….not yet completely in what regards the loads in a canting keel, but that is a different story and that were mostly of steel (and now they are all).

Regarding the reliability of carbon hulls, there are many old Open 60 with 15 years still racing around the world. In fact they have proved so “indestructible” that they are used on a minor circumnavigating race, the Velux 5 Oceans (minor but longer). Each of those boats had already made many circumnavigations and hundreds of thousands of Nm, more than almost any cruising boat on the planet and they have made them racing and many times in high latitudes.

The fragility of carbon racers has to do with being as light as possible regarding the conditions they meet. Inshore carbon racers are more fragile than offshore carbon racers and these ones more fragile than boats designed to race while circumnavigating non stop. This ones have to be necessarily very strong.

Yes, it is possible that a Hinckley or an Hanse have a safety coefficient bigger but that coefficient is related with the forces and conditions the boat have to face and as a IMOCA boat has to face much tougher conditions that does not mean that a Hanse or a Hincley are stronger than an Open 60, quite the contrary. Put them on the big Austral desert facing 50K winds and 10 meters waves and they are more at risk than an Open 60, from breakage and from capsizing, simply because the Open 60 was designed taking those conditions into consideration, not the Hanse or the Hinkley.

That does not mean that I do not agree with you that these boats are so powerful that they cannot be sailed full throttle all the time. The shipper has to manage the power according with the sea conditions but for what we have seen on the last edition…the power these boats can take even in rough conditions is just amazing. In fact I am no sure who would break first, the boat or the skipper.

well, here is already 2014. For the ones that are still in 2013, a good "passage". I am drinking champagne!!!

Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 12-31-2013 at 09:37 PM.
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