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  #121  
Old 12-31-2013
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Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

This is a question for PCP or informed sailor. This boat was going as slow as it was able ? Is that what I am reading ?
>We had the brake on, and were we were still going 30kts at times.<
Do they drag a drogue or just sail no matter what conditions ? What are storm tactics for this type boat?
Good day, Lou
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  #122  
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Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

Hi Lou. Good new year to you

I never heard about these boats using a floating anchor. Many years before I read about a famous French sailor with a predecessor of these boats trying something like that to slow the boat on a huge storm and it did not work out: The boat was slower but that allowed the waves to break all over the boat. He then went on sailing and said it was incomparably better in what regarded seaworthiness.

For what I can understand and for what I have seen these guys doing in bad condition, they keep sailing more slowly and on the best sailing direction that probably depends on the conditions. They are safer in a dynamically way and what this type of boats can take is more than what Stamm had encountered.

In fact he was sailing wit a 4 reefed main and a small frontal sail and if he needed he could depower the boat a lot more. I have seen these boats sailing in conditions where they are making 10K with bare pole. Bare Poles are for these boats the way they face extreme weather. Bare poles with extreme winds will allow them to keep sailing maintaining directional stability and boat control.

If he was sailing not with bare poles but with a reefed main and a storm jib I am sure that it was because he considered that it was the right amount of sail for the conditions, that he said, were manageable and I am also sure he knew what he was doing.

The boat did not break because the conditions were not manageable for that type of boat but because that particular boat had some structural issue that had not been detected and repaired.

On Yachting World magazine site we can read this:

"A day earlier they had reported sailing in winds of 45-55 knots, very big seas but said they were holding up fine. ‘Hide the children and the cat, park your car away from trees; we are coming up with something not very nice," they reported. Alarmingly, they added that they had been unable at times to slow the boat, which had hit a top speed of 31.3 knots, and had on several occasions been rolled in wave troughs."

Read more at Bernard Stamm rescue: 'I swam for my life' | Yachting World

But that is just a lousy translation of he said and does not even regarding the conditions they had when the accident took place (he made another statement about that). With that "translation" one stays with a wrong impression. This is the original statement:

"Bonjour, Un conseil, planquez les enfants, le chat et garez votre voiture au vent des arbres, on arrive avec quelque chose de pas sympa.

A bord, ça va, le bateau prend des gros coups mais tient bien le choc. On a 45 noeuds établis avec rafales à 55. La mer est très grosse. Nous sommes avec 3 ris tourmentin, mais on a du mal à freiner le bateau.
On a fait une pointe de vitesse à 31,33 noeuds, mais on s'en passerait volontiers. Le pilote ne gère pas trop mal, à part 3 fois où il s'est laissé prendre dans le creux de la vague et on est parti à l'abattée à chaque fois. Pas de bobo à part une latte de GV cassée."


Nouvelles... ventées du bord ! - News - Cheminées Poujoulat sponsor officiel de Bernard Stamm

a better translation would be:

"Good morning, an advise, hide the children and the cat, park your car away from trees, we are arriving with something not very nice,"

Aboard we are alright, the boat is sailing in hard conditions but is doing well. we have sustained 45K wing gusting 55K. The seas are very big. we are sailing with 3 reefs on the main and a storm jib and we have difficulty in slowing the boat. He reached at one time the max speed of 31,33K but we would have preferred to avoid that. The autopilot works reasonably well dealing with the conditions with the exception of three times where he were caught on the base of a big wave and we broached the three times. No problems, except a broken batten."


I would say that the general idea that we get is quite different. They are talking about conditions they are managing on autopilot, not even hand steering and they have yet way of taking more sail out of the boat and depowering it.

Stamm had said regarding the weather and sailing conditions at the time they had the accident: "Nous étions un peu devant le front, au portant. Il y avait entre 43 et 45 nœuds de vent établis, mais c’était maniable." meaning they were in control and that the conditions were tough but not extreme.

This is the complete statement and where he talks about the conditions but saying nothing about boat speed (only that the conditions where manageable) I have translated his statement in the interesting boat thread:

Réactions, à chaud, de Bernard Stamm - News - Cheminées Poujoulat sponsor officiel de Bernard Stamm

Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 01-01-2014 at 09:06 AM.
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  #123  
Old 01-01-2014
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Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

Thank you, PCP The report leads you to think the boat is out of control. Yet later he has less wind and the tragic misfortune of the boat breaking.
I also did not quote Bernard Stamm. I took two parts of that report and put them close. It is easy to see how things said start to take on a new meaning. We only hear what we want. Sometimes we are not even aware this happens. I like the reading lesson that changes a word in a sentence and your brain will change the words to make it fit your mind.
Good Day, Lou
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  #124  
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Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lou452 View Post
Thank you, PCP The report leads you to think the boat is out of control. Yet later he has less wind and the tragic misfortune of the boat breaking.
I also did not quote Bernard Stamm. I took two parts of that report and put them close. It is easy to see how things said start to take on a new meaning. We only hear what we want. Sometimes we are not even aware this happens. I like the reading lesson that changes a word in a sentence and your brain will change the words to make it fit your mind.
Good Day, Lou
More information was given by Stamm on an interview to a newspaper that confirm what I had said on previous posts and that explain better what were the conditions when the accident took place:

"We were under storm jib and with 4 reefs in the main. Everything was under control: We were sailing downwind in a way that was similar to evasive sailing, running with the wind. The boat was doing 12/13K (out of surfs) and it was behaving very well. I was at the chart table with Danien Guillou when, in a wave, we heard a huge crack: the boat break completely in two parts......

The problem was with the boat, that is designed to sail on big seas, and broke in two....one thing is for sure: we were sailing much lower than the boat potential (under-speed) ... that's what is incredible. When we are racing and we are attacking exploiting the boat full potential..., then we are stressing the boats, but on this occasion we sailed in complete security and the boat was very little stressed. That makes no sense. "


You can have more information on the interesting boat thread.

Regards

Paulo
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  #125  
Old 01-02-2014
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Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Yes, it is possible that a Hinckley or an Hanse have a safety coefficient bigger but that coefficient is related with the forces and conditions the boat have to face and as a IMOCA boat has to face much tougher conditions that does not mean that a Hanse or a Hincley are stronger than an Open 60, quite the contrary. Put them on the big Austral desert facing 50K winds and 10 meters waves and they are more at risk than an Open 60, from breakage and from capsizing, simply because the Open 60 was designed taking those conditions into consideration, not the Hanse or the Hinkley.
This is where we will agree to disagree. If something has a safety factor of 5:1, lets say the expected load is 100 lbs on the cruiser, then they'll build it to 500 lbs giving it the 5:1 ratio.

If the race boat's expected load is 1000 lbs they'll build it to 2.0x that. 2,000 lbs. This doesn't make the race boat stronger just b/c it can stand higher loads. It's REQUIRED to withstand higher loads b/c it generates them.
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  #126  
Old 01-04-2014
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Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

And, in more news of Coast Guard crews being placed in jeopardy needlessly:

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but this recent Northeaster/blizzard was pretty well forecast in advance, no? So, what the hell was anyone doing off Cape Fear/Prying Pan Shoals on a 63' sailboat, on Thursday night???

UPDATE: Coast Guard rescues five from sailboat off Bald Head Island | WWAY NewsChannel 3 | Wilmington NC News

Ahh, yet another sea story that apparently begins with a sailboat "losing power"... :-)

Damn, I'd love to know more about this one... Sure hope it wasn't another one of those RTW racing boats, or a Salty Dawg off to a late start... :-)
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  #127  
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Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
And, in more news of Coast Guard crews being placed in jeopardy needlessly...

Damn, I'd love to know more about this one... Sure hope it wasn't another one of those RTW racing boats, or a Salty Dawg off to a late start... :-)
They should have bought the unlimited towing package from Boat/US!

Nevertheless, it is good to know the USCG is always there for our convenience, just in case it gets scary out there on a 63' sailboat!
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  #128  
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Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

Quote:
Originally Posted by zz4gta View Post
This is where we will agree to disagree. If something has a safety factor of 5:1, lets say the expected load is 100 lbs on the cruiser, then they'll build it to 500 lbs giving it the 5:1 ratio.

If the race boat's expected load is 1000 lbs they'll build it to 2.0x that. 2,000 lbs. This doesn't make the race boat stronger just b/c it can stand higher loads. It's REQUIRED to withstand higher loads b/c it generates them.
THIS is what is so important to understand

its not just the design and safety factors its what you do with said boat!

an open 60 is not better designed than a hinckley or hanse or whatever they are "narrower minded" designs that are better at doing what they do and that is solo sailing in high latitudes...

hit an open 60 hull the right way and you can easily crack it, carbon fiber is fiddly like this(my experience comes from bicycle frames in racing) they are strong only in certain angles.

you cant do that on most production heavy offhshore cruisers again an example a westsail 32

if an open 60 would be designed using the same safety margins, hull strength and rig strength that open 60 would be LAST PLACE


ALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL THE TIME but it probably wont have any catastrophic failures...so you have to choose!

lets quit the whole nonsensical this design is better than this other design and more focus on intended purpose of said design
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  #129  
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Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

Quote:
Originally Posted by zz4gta View Post
This is where we will agree to disagree. If something has a safety factor of 5:1, lets say the expected load is 100 lbs on the cruiser, then they'll build it to 500 lbs giving it the 5:1 ratio.

If the race boat's expected load is 1000 lbs they'll build it to 2.0x that. 2,000 lbs. This doesn't make the race boat stronger just b/c it can stand higher loads. It's REQUIRED to withstand higher loads b/c it generates them.
I understand what you say and I have no problem with different opinions but I don't think you are looking at itthe right way:

5:1 ratio is a very good ratio even for a cruising boat, but let's accept that as the right figure for expensive boats. But the 1:2 ratio is completely out for a boat able to do a non stop circumnavigation in high latitudes. We have seen that the only mandatory ratio, 1:4.1 was raised to 1:5. I believe most of the boats will be built with not less than a 1:3 ratio, probably between 3 and 4 in most cases.

This ratio on a Imoca boat regard the highest loads the boat experience (the same with the cruising boat) that in this case is sailing between 20 and 30K and sailing on high latitudes were waves can reach many times over 30ft.

The difference in loads regarding speed is not a progressive one but an exponential one. The same boat sailing at 30K is not sustaining 50% more stress than at 20k the same way a boat sailing at 10k is not sustaining half the stress than he takes at 20K but much less. Even a difference of 5 or 6 K can double the loads on the hull and keel.

I now this but I cannot tell you exact figures. For the sake of discussion let's assume that at 20k the same hull is experiencing 3 times more stress than sailing at 10k (I would say that factor is much bigger).

So in this case let's consider your 1000lbs load that taking into consideration the 5 factor used for a cruising boat will translate in a breaking load of 5000lbs.

The same load on a racing boat wit a 3 factor would translate in 3000lbs but considering that the boat is built to sustain the conditions on high latitude and to be sailed at 3 times the speed of the cruising boat (between 20 and 30K) we would have to consider another factor due to the needs of sustaining these conditions, that corresponds to the differences in magnitude of the maximum loads the two different boats will sustain. Let's take the 3 factor as that difference in magnitude even if I consider that in reality it is a bigger one:

Than we have for the Imoca: 3000lbs .3 = 9000 lbs of breaking load while the top cruising boat will have 5000lbs.

This does not mean that if the top cruising boat and the Imoca are sailed to the worse loading conditions they are designed to sustain, meaning the cruising boat on average latitudes and at 10/11k and the Imoca on high latitudes at 26/30k, the cruising boat will not be more reliable, quite the contrary, but will mean also that if the racing boat is sailed at half of its potential (in what regards stress and speed), it will be more reliable than the cruising boat.

Those were the conditions that, according with what Stamm said, the boat was being sailed when it broke. The boat was not being raced but sailed in a safety mode, being on autopilot with them inside.

Regards

Paulo
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  #130  
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Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

Quote:
Originally Posted by christian.hess View Post
...
hit an open 60 hull the right way and you can easily crack it, carbon fiber is fiddly like this(my experience comes from bicycle frames in racing) they are strong only in certain angles.

you cant do that on most production heavy offhshore cruisers again an example a westsail 32
..
Hess, What you say does not make sense. I don't know nothing about bicycles but I do know that there are 15 year old Open 60's still racing after having made 4 or 5 racing circumnavigations and much more racing Transats, boats with hundreds of thousands of miles, boats that have sustained more stress than any cruising boat during their entire life...and that are still around waiting for the next Five Ocean's race.


That would not would be possible if this was true: "hit an open 60 hull the right way and you can easily crack it, carbon fiber is fiddly ... they are strong only in certain angles."

Carbon fiber is just the strongest and more durable material around with the disadvantage of being an expensive one. Because it is so strong you can make lighter boats as strong as heavier boats on any other material, namely fiberglass.

Nothing better to do a strong boat than carbon. How strong it will not depend on the material itself (that is the strongest) but on the load factors used.

Many maxi luxury yachts with 100ft are today built in Carbon, not because it is the more racing appropriated material but because it is the best material, if we take not price in consideration and some of those buyers just want the best, regardless of price.

If you do a Westsail 32 in Carbon with the same weight of a fiberglass one, you would have a boat many times stronger....and a huge waste

Regards

Paulo
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