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  #131  
Old 01-04-2014
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Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

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Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Those were the conditions that, according with what Stamm said, the boat was being sailed when it broke. The boat was not being raced but sailed in a safety mode, being on autopilot with them inside.

Regards

Paulo
Hmmm, speaking of sailing under autopilot... Too bad the camera was not on a gimballed mount, to better convey the full effect...

Your mention earlier in the thread about the inversion/righting test was dismissed by some, as being of little significance... Yeah, well, I'd love to see anyone here try it with their own boat... :-)

Impressive to me, is how dry the cockpit remains throughout, the amazing amount of floatation that hull affords... Lay any of the boats most of us sail on their sides for that long, and the downflooding of the companionway would probably be well underway :-)

Not to mention, imagine what would happen to a couple of hundred pounds of of diesel in jerry cans lashed to the lifeline stanchions :-)


Suffice it to say, guys like Stamm are cut from a different cloth than you and me... :-)

Last edited by JonEisberg; 01-04-2014 at 11:35 AM.
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  #132  
Old 01-04-2014
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Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

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Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
Hmmm, speaking of sailing under autopilot... Too bad the camera was not on a gimballed mount, to better convey the full effect...

Your mention earlier in the thread about the inversion/righting test was dismissed by some, as having little meaning... Yeah, well, I'd love to see anyone here try it with their own boat... :-)

Incredible broach on a sailing boat - YouTube

Suffice it to say, guys like Stamm are cut from a different cloth than you and me... :-)
Yes, regarding the inversion/righting test to serve only to see how much water would go inside the boat, as someone stated, it seemed so absurd that I did not even reply. Regarding the inversion test without a mast: do you know that a boat would re right itself easily if the mast stays in place? I agree, that seems strange but serious tank testing took away any doubt.

These boats have the most demanding mandatory stability requirements in all industry, racing or cruising alike. As you know they have many thousands of liters of liked ballast and a canting keel. Putting everything on the wrong place, meaning keel canting to the side of heel as well had thousands of liters of water ballast, even so they have a mandatory AVS superior to the one of many cruising boats, one that would allow them to pass RCD class A requirements by a large margin.

When they are hit broadside by a wave, they will have normally all on the right place, canting keel and ballast, so you can imagine the stability of those animals.

In what other type of 60ft sailing boat it would be possible to be inside chatting with the other crew member on big seas with 45/50K of wind on autopilot doing over 10K with the boat [B]"behaving very well... in complete security and the boat was very little stressed"[/B.

Yes, I know, the boat broke but the fact that a very experienced sailor can fell this about his sailboat (that he knew very well) on those conditions show the sailing potential of these boats in bad weather as well it shows how unusual it was that type of breakage.

These guys, I mean IMOCA sailors have something good for them, they form a very tight association that rules the way the boats are developed and modified. This accident will be investigated even if the boat is lost. The JK project of Stamm's boat, in what regards hull and structure safety margins will be compared with the other class projects where an incident like this never happened and if the problem has to do with a too fragile boat and not with a building defect, minimum mandatory factors will be implemented for hull and structure as they had already been implemented for the keel.

That boat had passed for much worse than that and I would wait with interest the developments of this case in what regards this investigation. Anyway Stamm's boat had suffered along the years several unusual problems and that only makes it more interesting: A not reliable building, a not reliable project or other factors?

Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 01-04-2014 at 11:59 AM.
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  #133  
Old 01-04-2014
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Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

Jon,

Do that, for that long a duration, with some cruising boats and it's now an artificial reef for crabs.... When younger I broached in some old CCA boats during racing and they take on water pretty darn fast even when righted quickly.....
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  #134  
Old 01-04-2014
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Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

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Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Hess, What you say does not make sense. I don't know nothing about bicycles but I do know that there are 15 year old Open 60's still racing after having made 4 or 5 racing circumnavigations and much more racing Transats, boats with hundreds of thousands of miles, boats that have sustained more stress than any cruising boat during their entire life...and that are still around waiting for the next Five Ocean's race.


That would not would be possible if this was true: "hit an open 60 hull the right way and you can easily crack it, carbon fiber is fiddly ... they are strong only in certain angles."
Didn't this whole thread get started because a carbon fiber boat got hit in just the wrong spot and broke the **** in half?

Carbon fiber is very strong, but it is also prone to odd cracks when stressed the wrong way. It's a relatively new material, and I think this incident shows that it can fail sometimes.
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  #135  
Old 01-04-2014
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Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

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Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Hess, What you say does not make sense. I don't know nothing about bicycles but I do know that there are 15 year old Open 60's still racing after having made 4 or 5 racing circumnavigations and much more racing Transats, boats with hundreds of thousands of miles, boats that have sustained more stress than any cruising boat during their entire life...and that are still around waiting for the next Five Ocean's race.


That would not would be possible if this was true: "hit an open 60 hull the right way and you can easily crack it, carbon fiber is fiddly ... they are strong only in certain angles."

Carbon fiber is just the strongest and more durable material around with the disadvantage of being an expensive one. Because it is so strong you can make lighter boats as strong as heavier boats on any other material, namely fiberglass.

Nothing better to do a strong boat than carbon. How strong it will not depend on the material itself (that is the strongest) but on the load factors used.

Many maxi luxury yachts with 100ft are today built in Carbon, not because it is the more racing appropriated material but because it is the best material, if we take not price in consideration and some of those buyers just want the best, regardless of price.

If you do a Westsail 32 in Carbon with the same weight of a fiberglass one, you would have a boat many times stronger....and a huge waste

Regards

Paulo
Paulo, carbon does have limitations. One of the earliest applications of it in sailing was rudder stocks. Many of them broke because the fibers had not been correctly oriented for the stresses they experienced. Once they were constructed with the correct orientation the problem was solved.

Considering the localized and angular stresses on a bike frame I'm sure it would be easy to experience cracking if the layup was not oriented exactly right.
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  #136  
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Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

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Originally Posted by Minnesail View Post
Carbon fiber is very strong, but it is also prone to odd cracks when stressed the wrong way. It's a relatively new material, and I think this incident shows that it can fail sometimes.
Carbon fiber is not the only material that can fail, sometimes :-)

MSC Monterey Suffers Crack Off Canada ? UPDATE | gCaptain ? Maritime & Offshore News

A Look Back: MOL Comfort Incident Photos [25 PHOTOS] | gCaptain ? Maritime & Offshore News


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  #137  
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Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

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Originally Posted by Minnesail View Post
Didn't this whole thread get started because a carbon fiber boat got hit in just the wrong spot and broke the **** in half?

Carbon fiber is very strong, but it is also prone to odd cracks when stressed the wrong way. It's a relatively new material, and I think this incident shows that it can fail sometimes.
A new material?????
You have been distracted on the last 50 years

The History of Carbon Fiber & How It's Being Used TodayHj3 Composite Technologies

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Paulo
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  #138  
Old 01-04-2014
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Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

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Originally Posted by Minnesail View Post
Didn't this whole thread get started because a carbon fiber boat got hit in just the wrong spot and broke the **** in half?

Carbon fiber is very strong, but it is also prone to odd cracks when stressed the wrong way. It's a relatively new material, and I think this incident shows that it can fail sometimes.
I have avoided all contact with said person for the simple reason that stubborness in my opinion equals stupidity when you only see your point of view

thinking outside the box is a chefs motto as other career mottos too...for me if there is a different way of thinking that even though is not BETTER(in your view) its still valid and should be respected...

when respect is lost for all thoughts and principles besides your own you become ignorant...

I offered the bicycle racing frame scenario in order to EDUCATE certain people who think they know it all

15 years old(for a boat) is pretty damn new in my book,for a racing boat yeah ok well seasoned... I should add that also.

my point was carbon fiber has very different characterstics than steel or aluminum or glass...they are very very strong on linear pull but bend them or hit them just right and they sometimes explode right in front of you.

this has been proven many times in the bicycling industry and even the motorcycle industry so once again for somebody who shall remain nameless to say I do not make sense YET AGAIN or ignorant or wrong just goes to show HOW BLINDFOLDED and dumb(stubborn) one can be

again my thoughts on stuff like this comes from experience in racing, being a former national saliing team coach, having restored wooden and glass boats and noticed how racing and cruising boats are so damn different

again I STRESS DIFFERENT USEAGE

saying one boat is designed BETTER than the other just shows how little imagination you have with regards to everything else a design entails.

Ill end it for good here

peace
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  #139  
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Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

Quote:
Originally Posted by SloopJonB View Post
Paulo, carbon does have limitations. One of the earliest applications of it in sailing was rudder stocks. Many of them broke because the fibers had not been correctly oriented for the stresses they experienced. Once they were constructed with the correct orientation the problem was solved.

Considering the localized and angular stresses on a bike frame I'm sure it would be easy to experience cracking if the layup was not oriented exactly right.
Yes of course, you are talking about defective building techniques. All materials should be used correctly but one thing is to say that they have inherent weaknesses other is to say they were badly used. I doubt that it would be that the case with Stamm's boat that was built by a very specialized shipyard.

Nasa would not be using it in spacecrafts for many years if it was a fragile material with inherent weaknesses

This is an old fighter but the first one to use carbon wings (F18):



New untried technology with hidden defects? I don't thing so

Used only on racing boats....think again:

<iframe src="//player.vimeo.com/video/39401800?title=0&amp;byline=0&amp;portrait=0" width="960" height="543" frameborder="0" webkitallowfullscreen mozallowfullscreen allowfullscreen></iframe> <p><a href="http://vimeo.com/39401800">SY Sarissa - Vitters Shipyard</a> from <a href="http://vimeo.com/user3445905">Vitters Shipyard</a> on <a href="https://vimeo.com">Vimeo</a>.</p>

Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 01-04-2014 at 02:58 PM.
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  #140  
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Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

Carbon must not be too weak in some angles etc, or the sail makers would not be telling me to NOT fold my carbon stringed sails! the folds can weaken, making the sail shape not be as it is supposed to. The recommend rolling.

I'm not going to say carbon is not strong, quite contrary for its wt to strength, VERY STRONG! But like a lot of items, I do believe if you use it wrong, the wrong way, hit it incorrectly as made. it is and can be very weak.

With this in mind........I would still take if reasonably affordable, a lighter wt carbon hulled boat over a heavier fiberglass/epoxy hulled boat..........

But like all things great and small, it must be designed correctly, or it WILL fail. May even fail after useage too. Boeing seems to be having an issue with some of its OLDEST planes if some area's are not fixed and repaired. Or look at older wooden boats. if rot is not repaired, it can get pretty weak.......same could be said for carbon stringed sails, if the strings break due to folding......sail is not as strong as it was........

Marty
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