Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches... - Page 15 - SailNet Community

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  #141  
Old 01-04-2014
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Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Yes of course, you are talking about defective building techniques. All materials should be used correctly but one thing is to say that they have inherent weaknesses other is to say they were badly used. I doubt that it would be that the case with Stamm's boat that was built by a very specialized shipyard.

Nasa would not be using it in spacecrafts for many years if it was a fragile material with inherent weaknesses

Regards

Paulo
Carbon DOES have inherent weaknesses that must be accounted for in their use. Their strength is primarily tensile with compression being a "weakness". This is probably where bike frames run into problems.

They are susceptible to UV and require protection from it - like most plastics.

Finally and most critically, their fatigue life is not known or well understood - likely the situation behind Stamm's "front falling off".

CF's are quite remarkable but no matter what your opinion of them is, they are still fairly experimental in a large number of applications. They simply have not been in widespread use long enough for all their strengths & weaknesses to be fully understood.
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  #142  
Old 01-04-2014
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Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

Carbon is not the bulletproof cureall miracle material some would like it to be. Captain Stamm and his crew survived -- this time. The next crew -- who knows?

Quote:
Originally Posted by pcp
Nasa would not be using it in spacecrafts for many years if it was a fragile material with inherent weaknesses
NASA management murdered seven astronauts when they disallowed in-flight investigation of a launchtime debris strike by a one-pound foam chunk on a left wing carbon panel. Had they known about the damage, the astronauts could have jury-rigged defensive repairs and maneuvered the ship to protect the damaged wing during re-entry. If the damage was too severe, they may have been able to get to ISS, wait for repair parts or a ride home. They would have had a chance. Instead, the bean-counters and publicity hounds sent them blindly to their deaths.

"After the launch, some engineers suspected the damage, but NASA managers limited the investigation, under the rationale that the Columbia crew could not have fixed the problem."

"People inside and outside had been noticing the shift and raising objections to increasingly careless management choices, as front-line workers were overruled for schedule and budget reasons."

Columbia disaster

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  #143  
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Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

NASA managers have f##ked up more than once, at the cost of others lives.

Who, for example, came up with the genius idea to have the original Apollo capsule have a pressurized pure oxygen environment? This in a capsule with about 5000 miles of electrical wiring in it.

That cost Grissom, White & Chaffee their lives.

A grade 8 science student would have known better.
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  #144  
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Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

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Originally Posted by SloopJonB View Post
NASA managers have f##ked up more than once, at the cost of others lives.

Who, for example, came up with the genius idea to have the original Apollo capsule have a pressurized pure oxygen environment? This in a capsule with about 5000 miles of electrical wiring in it.

That cost Grissom, White & Chaffee their lives.

A grade 8 science student would have known better.
Not to mention a spacecraft filled with flammable materials, and a hatch that took something like two minutes to open.

They knew for years that the SRB design on the Shuttle was defective, but did nothing until Challenger exploded, killing the seven crewmembers.

Complacency kills people. Just because a boat has sailed around the world doesn't mean it is fit to do it again. Safety has to be a pro-active, pre-emptive process, not a hope that everything is OK because nothing has broken yet.
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  #145  
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Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

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Not to mention a spacecraft filled with flammable materials, and a hatch that took something like two minutes to open.

They knew for years that the SRB design on the Shuttle was defective, but did nothing until Challenger exploded, killing the seven crewmembers.

Complacency kills people. Just because a boat has sailed around the world doesn't mean it is fit to do it again. Safety has to be a pro-active, pre-emptive process, not a hope that everything is OK because nothing has broken yet.
Damn, it's a good thing Stamm and his crew survived, otherwise we'd likely be seeing Juan K brought up on MURDER charges, eh?

I don't know why you guys seem so determined to ignore the very strong probability that the failure was a consequence of the collision and subsequent repair after the boat was abandoned in the 2011 Transat J-V...

Rescue off Scilly Isles. Bernard Stamm? - Ocean Racing Anarchy - Sailing Anarchy Forums
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  #146  
Old 01-04-2014
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Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

Monday morning quarterbacks with everything all figured out. After the fact.
Exactly why I watch almost all sports on TV with the sound muted.
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  #147  
Old 01-04-2014
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Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

Jon,

Not to sound like another monday morning QB, but considering the "What Happened" with the "CynthiaB?!?!?!?!" ie the boat with the texas college students in the race that lost a keel etc. The end result blame was put on the repairs from groundings past IIRC.....Not that I want to go thru the what I recall 100+ pages from the CG etc....

Sheet like this occurs, when you think things are fixed, but stuff you can not see is still broken injured or otherwise. Then things break again, but in a more catastrophic manner!

marty
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  #148  
Old 01-04-2014
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Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
Damn, it's a good thing Stamm and his crew survived, otherwise we'd likely be seeing Juan K brought up on MURDER charges, eh?

I don't know why you guys seem so determined to ignore the very strong probability that the failure was a consequence of the collision and subsequent repair after the boat was abandoned in the 2011 Transat J-V...

Rescue off Scilly Isles. Bernard Stamm? - Ocean Racing Anarchy - Sailing Anarchy Forums
Believe it or not but out for fairness. The description that Stamm gave at the time about that 2011 accident referred a water entry on the forward part of the boat and the boat now broke not at the bow but at the middle, on the daggerboard zone so I believed that both accidents were not related...till I saw this movie regarding the repair of the hole caused by that collision:

<iframe width="960" height="540" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/JqVTlyxNajU" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

and we can see that is not on the frontal part of the boat (0.22 on the movie) but that the damage goes till the dagerboard zone, where the boat broke.

So I think you are right and that the probability of that accident to be caused by a bad repair on a previous damage is very high.

Regards

Paulo
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Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
Monday morning quarterbacks with everything all figured out. After the fact.
Exactly why I watch almost all sports on TV with the sound muted.
We don't have everything figured out. That's the problem. We're not ignoring anything. We're saying when masts keep failing, rudders breaking, and keels keep falling off, there is a systemic failure to adequately address the underlying causes. Captain Stamms' boat should have been *stronger than new* after the repairs.
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  #150  
Old 01-05-2014
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Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

"We're saying when masts keep failing, rudders breaking, and keels keep falling off, there is a systemic failure to adequately address the underlying causes"

Did you consider that in the world of gran prix racing yachts everything possible is being done to reduce weight? "Engineering" relies upon accurate identification of the loads. That is darn difficult with a sailing machine. The ocean is volitile and unpredictable at times. The deigners could increase safety factors but then they are in a grey area and adding weight. I think it is inevitable that racing yachts designed to compete at this level will break.

Marty:
I was an expert witness on the Texas case. Sad story.

But carry on. I am simply a casual observer to all of this.
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