Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches... - Page 2 - SailNet Community
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post #11 of 213 Old 12-26-2013
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Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

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This are not only passagemakers but probably the safest and strongest sailboats around. It seems you don't know very well the class (IMOCA). If you were familiar with it you would know that they have pioneered almost all safety measures taken on modern racing sailboats today and are the ones with more demanding safety standards.

This is a class with dozens of years and many sailboats built. The main problems are canting keel failure, mast and rudder breakage. A broken boat is indeed very rare and I do not remember any other boat (in decades) with a catastrophic structural breakage.

This was a recent boat (2011) so even if the boat had already circumnavigated while racing and done a racing transat among other races.

As I said there are many IMOCA boats still racing after 20 years of active service that included several non stop racing circumnavigations (on the same boat) and many transats, facing big storms and resisting the huge efforts that these racing machines create on the boat structure due to the high speeds achieved.

Any boat can suffer from a bad design or from a defect in the building process and the ones that are more subjected to huge efforts are the ones where those problems can be felt in a more catastrophic way. Very rare as I said but obviously that should be investigated for not happening again.

Regards

Paulo

Well it's true, I don't know the class very well. So you might pardon my ignorance in wondering if this "probably strongest and safest sailboat around", two years old, breaks in two in 40 to 45 knots downwind under greatly reduced sail, then do the "almost strongest" break in two in 30 knots?

Doesn't seem right..
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post #12 of 213 Old 12-26-2013
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Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

Too much engineering and not enough boat.

We have three rules;
No screaming.
No bleeding on the sails.
No slobbering on the charts.
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post #13 of 213 Old 12-26-2013
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Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

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Well it's true, I don't know the class very well. So you might pardon my ignorance in wondering if this "probably strongest and safest sailboat around", two years old, breaks in two in 40 to 45 knots downwind under greatly reduced sail, then do the "almost strongest" break in two in 30 knots?

Doesn't seem right..
You forget to mention one racing full circumnavigations, several transats and many races. Most 50 year old sailing boats had not done anything remotely similar to this in what regards millage and none was subjected to structural stresses a boat like this is subject while racing at more than 20k in bad weather.

But obviously nothing of that has to with this accident because all the other many dozens the boats of this class, older boats, had done much more than that, some during 20 years without any structural problem so the answer, as I had already told you, is obvious:

A built defect or an error in design in what regards the stresses this type of boat are subject.

Anyway, as I have said already, not a common case, in fact so unique (structural catastrophic breakage) that I don't know of any other in several millions of miles these type of boats had sailed in racing conditions.

I fail to understand your concern regarding the safety with a type of boat that by its sailing record is one of the safest if not the safest sailboat around.

Regarding this particular case it is needed an investigation to know what went wrong: the design or the building but again this is an isolated case in a type of boats that reached a very high reliability and safety, a type of sailboat that has been improved in that sector every year on the last twenty.One that this year had already saw its rule modified to provide a greater reliability with the keels and masts.

I would say that if you knew these boats and their rule, particularly in what regards safety, what you would say is that all sailingboats should have that standard in what regards safety measures

Any boat can break in stormy conditions if the boat has a structural defect and has been pushed for a long time till that defect assumes catastrophic proportions....and this boat has been pushed hard for many tens of thousands of miles or even hundreds of thousands.

Regards

Paulo


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Last edited by PCP; 12-26-2013 at 07:43 PM.
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post #14 of 213 Old 12-26-2013
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Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

But Paulo, this all-important "investigation" is not going to have the hull in question to examine to determine if/what the alleged structural defect was, correct?
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post #15 of 213 Old 12-26-2013
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Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

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But Paulo, this all-important "investigation" is not going to have the hull in question to examine to determine if/what the alleged structural defect was, correct?
Probably not but again I fail to understand you: If one boat has a catastrophic failure that it is unheard on similar boats built on the last 20 years years, boats that had made millions of miles and some still race after all that time, do you not consider fundamental to know what went wrong with that particular and single case?

By the way, I don 't understand why you mention 30K regarding the conditiuons were the accident took place. What Stamm said was that: "entre 43 et 45 nœuds de vent établis" that means 43/45K not counting gusting that with that sort of wind would go probably to 60K or over and even so he says it was manageable, saying that he had not saw the need for stop sailing and take evasive survival actions, like a floating anchor.

This should say to you about the type of boat we are talking about. In fact Stamm had already taken a lot worse in it and there are some photos around with the boat on worse conditions even if not the worse he had taken.



Since you don't know the boat I have been patient and I have tried to explain to you and all of what we are talking about (regarding the boat) but I am not interested in discussing this further. I know the boat, I know what I am talking about, if you want to thing otherwise without any evidence to support your " safety concerns" except a freak structural isolated accident in 20 years of racing around the world in these type of boats you are obviously free to do so.

Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 12-26-2013 at 08:11 PM.
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post #16 of 213 Old 12-27-2013
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Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

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Not the first time he's had to be rescued:


I guess when you push the envelope.....
.... Someone else has to risk their life to pick up the pieces.


AFAIAC these sailors "pushing the envelope" offshore should have to pay every nickle of the cost of rescuing them and a healthy fine on top.

Maybe then they'll leave the envelope pushing for inshore waters and have properly seaworthy boats for offshore.

To my mind they're no different than skiers who go out of bounds.

I, myself, personally intend to continue being outspoken and opinionated, intolerant of all fanatics, fools and ignoramuses, deeply suspicious of all those who have "found the answer" and on my bad days, downright rude.
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post #17 of 213 Old 12-27-2013
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Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

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This is a class with dozens of years and many sailboats built. The main problems are canting keel failure, mast and rudder breakage. A broken boat is indeed very rare and I do not remember any other boat (in decades) with a catastrophic structural breakage.
Paulo, do you hear yourself? The MAIN problems are keel failures and mast and rudder failures.

The fact that they aren't routinely suffering catastrophic hull failures makes them "probably the safest and strongest boats around"?

I certainly would want to go out on anything you regarded poorly.

I, myself, personally intend to continue being outspoken and opinionated, intolerant of all fanatics, fools and ignoramuses, deeply suspicious of all those who have "found the answer" and on my bad days, downright rude.
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post #18 of 213 Old 12-27-2013
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Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

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Paulo, do you hear yourself? The MAIN problems are keel failures and mast and rudder failures.

The fact that they aren't routinely suffering catastrophic hull failures makes them "probably the safest and strongest boats around"?

I certainly would want to go out on anything you regarded poorly.
Sail these boats at the double of the speed your boat can do and they will go anywhere on absolute safety. Sail your boat at the speed these babies can sail and it will be reduced to little pieces (off course you need to have it towed by a battleship at speed or something like that)

Regards

Paulo


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post #19 of 213 Old 12-27-2013
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Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

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Sail these boats at the double of the speed your boat can do and they will go anywhere on absolute safety. Paulo
Except for those pesky rig failures, keel failures, rudder failures and now, hull failures.

All you've said is that they are FAST which was never in doubt.

I, myself, personally intend to continue being outspoken and opinionated, intolerant of all fanatics, fools and ignoramuses, deeply suspicious of all those who have "found the answer" and on my bad days, downright rude.
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post #20 of 213 Old 12-27-2013
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Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

You got to be tough to survive the open ocean. Reminds me of Robin Knox-Johnston.
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