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  #21  
Old 12-27-2013
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Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

Quote:
Originally Posted by SloopJonB View Post
Except for those pesky rig failures, keel failures, rudder failures and now, hull failures.

....
Jon, those boats are around for more than 20 years, they have circumnavigated racing hundreds of times, the same boat several times without any incident of this type and then you conclude that a single accident (catastrophic hull breakage) is relevant not of some structural problem on a particular boat but as a general problem on these boats? come on

Regarding rig failures and keel failures, when you push the limits you have problems. Rig failures is a risk in any big offshore racing sailboat (you did not know that?) and when your keel contact with a whale at over 20K... the chances are that something break. This year the rules have been modified regarding standard keels and masts to all, stronger ones to continue to make these boats one of the best offshore sailing boats around.

Maybe a video would help to see the potential in what regards sailing in bad weather?

<iframe width="960" height="540" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/BVONiQSHsME" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

You seam to be terrible conservative. Maybe the words of one of the more famous cruisers (and more knowledgeable) would help too?

Jimmy Cornell in an interview when asked about his opinion regarding long range cruisers:

"I advocate for light cruising sailboats, but in the Anglo-Saxon countries, the idea is struggling to win! This is less true in France "

and when asked about the developments on cruising sailboats:

The racing sailboats have evolved rapidly in recent years, as opposed to cruising yachts. The racing yacht design has not yet sent all its developments to the world of cruising yacht design. Cruising sailboats are more comfortable and more spacious, but they are not really exciting and it is the fault of the cruising sailors who feel that going at 6 knots its all right ... The boats are often still too heavy in their displacement ...

From all types of cruising boats, the IMOCA boats are the ones that have more contributed to the evolution of the modern cruiser.

Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 12-27-2013 at 06:34 PM.
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  #22  
Old 12-27-2013
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Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Regarding rig failures and keel failures, when you push the limits you have problems. Rig failures is a risk in any big offshore racing sailboat (you did not know that?) and when your keel contact with a whale at over 20K... the chances are that something break. This year the rules have been modified regarding standard keels and masts to all, stronger ones to continue to make these boats one of the best offshore sailing boats around.
Sayula, a stock Swan 65 won the first Whitbread nearly 1/2 century ago - after being rolled and coming back up with her rig intact.

That should be the goal offshore, not a few extra knots at the risk of one or more types of catastrophic failure.

I know, I know - "But they're RACING".

So was Sayula - she still is the last I heard. No dismastings, no keel failures, no rudder failures, no hull failures

Quote:
You seem to be terrible conservative. Regards Paulo
When it comes to blue water sailing, I am indeed, particularly when one is talking about the Southern Ocean or the Western Approaches in winter.

You've made it abundantly clear over the years that for you, performance comes first by a very large margin.

I simply think that gnarly blue water is no place to be pushing the envelope. Keep it inshore until the technology is proven. 55 years ago I would have said the same thing about someone who planned to take an early AeroMarine Bounty offshore.

Formula One cars are fantastically strong too but it would be a bad idea to enter one in the Paris-Dakar.
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Last edited by SloopJonB; 12-27-2013 at 08:00 PM.
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Old 12-27-2013
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Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

yay for the above comment!
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  #24  
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Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

Quote:
Originally Posted by SloopJonB View Post
Sayula, a stock Swan 65 won the first Whitbread nearly 1/2 century ago - after being rolled and coming back up with her rig intact.
....
You can keep the ones that can be rolled

I prefer the ones where that chance is a much harder one

Quote:
Originally Posted by SloopJonB View Post
Formula One cars are fantastically strong too but it would be a bad idea to enter one in the Paris-Dakar.
But you seem a bit confused, or maybe you don't know: Those boats, the IMOCA class were designed to do the sea equivalent of the Paris Dakar: The Vendee Globe, a non stop, solo circumnavigation without assistance around the globe

The equivalent of F1 of the seas are the America's cup big cats.

Try to solo circumnavigate with the old Sayula and I bet that not even the best sailor would be able to sail it solo, not to mention that he would be at half way when the IMOCA would already arrived.

But that is racing. Regarding cruising I remember you the words of Jimmy Cornell, a cruiser that after having circumnavigated 3 times and is going to circumnavigate one more, this time by the Northwest passage:

"I advocate for light cruising sailboats, but in the Anglo-Saxon countries, the idea is struggling to win! ... Cruising sailboats are more comfortable and more spacious, but they are not really exciting and it is the fault of the cruising sailors who feel that going at 6 knots its all right ... The boats are often still too heavy in their displacement ..."

Not a racer talking but a cruiser that likes to sail and hates to do it in a boring way. Well, me too.

Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 12-27-2013 at 09:03 PM.
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  #25  
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Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

O/K Paulo, you're right, I agree - risking the loss of your keel, rig, rudder or even entire boat is a perfectly acceptable tradeoff for higher speed when you're 1000 miles from land.
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  #26  
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Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
But you seem a bit confused, or maybe you don't know: Those boats, the IMOCA class were designed to do the sea equivalent of the Paris Dakar:
They were designed to go as fast as possible shorthanded - period.

Quote:
The Vendee Globe, a non stop, solo circumnavigation without assistance around the globe
Until something breaks, at which point they call for the Ozzie & AnZac Navies to come and rescue them.

Quote:
The equivalent of F1 of the seas are the America's cup big cats.
They are the counterpart to Top Fuel dragsters, not F1 cars.
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  #27  
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Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

Quote:
Originally Posted by SloopJonB View Post
O/K Paulo, you're right, I agree - risking the loss of your keel, rig, rudder or even entire boat is a perfectly acceptable tradeoff for higher speed when you're 1000 miles from land.
Not really convinced that eg an old Swan is better in this respect if the same kind of analysis is made as the flight companies are using, based on distance.

Sailing has changed dramatically the last 50 years. Then it was an accomplishment to just go around the globe. To do it single was extra ordinary, non-stop was not thought about.

Boats has changed, so has how they are used. Few racing are using the old traditional "survival" methods, instead sailing continues. Look on the fantastic photo on Stamm in a Force 10 in Biscaya.

This is of course extreme sailing. Not something I would like to do. But it does have a value, testing design and materials. May later in be used in "cruising" just as has been the case for decades.

Oh, and this about having to be rescued far far away. Risking others life, costly as well. Is this really an argument? Is it better with a 50 year old Swan? Or, any other kind of boat which for some reason starts to leak, hits something or whatever?
Should we prohibit sailing over large distances? That would be the ultimate consequence of such an argument.

/J
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Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

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Originally Posted by Jaramaz View Post
Oh, and this about having to be rescued far far away. Risking others life, costly as well. Is this really an argument? Is it better with a 50 year old Swan? Or, any other kind of boat which for some reason starts to leak, hits something or whatever?

Should we prohibit sailing over large distances? That would be the ultimate consequence of such an argument.
Yup, I'd happily take my chances with Bernard Stamm on his Open 60 in a winter storm in the Bay of Biscay, rather than with some comparatively geriatric Salty Dawgs of undetermined pedigree on a 30+ year old Out Island 41 in the Gulf Stream, during the passage of a strong cold front in November :-)
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Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

ooooh I like the above comment too...there are many sides to this...race and race well and competitevily you will have to push stuff to its limits...ever sail a laser? bend masts, break tillers and rudders all the time

open class boats are basically planing laser hulls with outboard daggerboards and a long bulb keel...basically you can make a mini open 60 by modifying a laser to have dual rudders etc...rig some wires on outboard poles...etc...

in any case its far more common to have catastrophic failures on a race boat pushing limits mid ocean than mom an pop on a westail 32 out in the middle of the pacific doing an avergae of 5 knots!

me I like both...I still dream of buliding myself a mini pogo and do a solo transat or pac cup...but for now I plan to cruise...like I have done before.

just sayin

cheers

happy new year in advance

christian
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  #30  
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Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

Quote:
Originally Posted by SloopJonB View Post
They were designed to go as fast as possible shorthanded - period....Until something breaks, at which point they call for the Ozzie & AnZac Navies to come and rescue them...They are the counterpart to Top Fuel dragsters, not F1 cars.
Your vision about these boats and the comparative reliability of the boats that made the first Challenge around the world is not according with reality.

First of all these are racing boats and therefore the reliability is a compromise regarding weight and speed but they were not designed to "to go as fast as possible shorthanded - period....Until something breaks, ...They are the counterpart to Top Fuel dragsters" neither they are comparable to top fuel dragsters that are designed to make some hundreds of meters reaching top speed.

Both comparisons are completely off but the last one is plain ridiculous since these boats were designed to win a circumnavigating solo race without stops and no assistance. If you don't arrive you don't win and these boats were designed to do it and win. Quite the opposite as a concept regarding a dragster and even regarding the Paris-Dakar that you mentioned a much more extreme event demanding a much superior reliability.

In fact there are no racing car, including the ones from the Paris Dakar that could make a world tour without outside assistance. Even in what regards a much shorter event like the Paris Dakar, there is no racing car that can make it all the way without outside assistance.

Regarding numbers and reliability on the last Vendee Globe they were 20 and 11 have finished. From them three retired due to damage after collisions with fishing boats or metallic objects, one retired due to problems with the autopilot, another retired (but sailed the boat around the world) after being disqualified due to outside help (when is anchor dragged), two boats retired after having lost the keel another one with problems on the canting keel system and one after losing the mast. Only 4 boats retired with mast or keel problems.

Even if we count Jean Pierre that lost the keel but made thousands of miles without keel and finished the race, the boats that have problems with keels or masts represents 20%, during a circumnavigation race.

Nothing like what we can take from what you say about the reliability of these boats but nonetheless not acceptable neither for me neither for the designers, builders and racers and that's why they changed the rule to make mandatory standard masts and keels, that will not only be stronger but will provide more information to the designers to better them and make them more reliable.

This race cannot be compared, as you have done regarding Sayula II, with the Whitbread Round the World Race for many reasons, the first of them is that while on the Vendee Globe is a solo non stop race without outside help, the Whitbread was a crewed circumnavigation with 4 legs and outside help and at the end of each leg they could have the boat repaired. Many boats would not have finished the race without repairs and without outside help. If that was a non stop race without outside help none of the two boats that won legs on the race would have finished it. One broke a mast once, the other twice.

Then Sayula II, that was a performance cruiser, not a racing boat only won the race in compensated time that is a thing that does not exist on the Vendee Globe where only real results count. Regarding real time, the Sayoula II was always very far away (several days) from the winners of any of the legs.

Regarding the condition of the boat at arrival the words of one of the crew (Butch Dalrymple-Smith) are very eloquent:

"Although Sayula was well built, and survived the rigors of the race rather better than the others, she only just made it - the standing rigging was in tatters by the end....Finally, when we were certain of winning, I asked the owner, Ramon Carlin, if he would allow me to over-crank a runner and bring the mast down. That way we would finish sideways with the rig over the side, make headlines all over the world, and give the spectators something to tell their grandchildren. He actually thought about it for a long time before reluctantly saying ‘no... because the yacht is not insured. "

Finally in what regards boat's security even if the Vendee Globe is much more demanding, not only for being a non stop race but because it is a solo race, none has died on the last vendee while three were tragically lost on the Whitbread.

Dragstars? I don't think so

Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 12-28-2013 at 01:07 PM.
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