Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches... - Page 4 - SailNet Community

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  #31  
Old 12-28-2013
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Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

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Originally Posted by Jaramaz View Post

Oh, and this about having to be rescued far far away. Risking others life, costly as well. Is this really an argument? Is it better with a 50 year old Swan? Or, any other kind of boat which for some reason starts to leak, hits something or whatever?
Should we prohibit sailing over large distances? That would be the ultimate consequence of such an argument.

/J

Well, yes, it is really an argument. Your rescuers will ideally be fellow racers who nevertheless take a big risk doing it, but they are "in the game" so each racer is grateful if they can assist another, and typically get time-compensation for it, which is only fair.

But (as here) the containership crew were volunteers following "the best tradition of the sea" as the merchant sailor typically do, and at considerable cost to their companies in lost time, willingly undertaken by owners as well as crews. This is how AMVER works, and why most ships volunteer to be in it. The Open 60 crew here describe how they were getting smashed around on the Jacobs ladder, and *how the ships crew descended to help them nevertheless* Sometimes these rescue crews are injured or lost themselves, either physically or the whole ship can be lost as they stand by the distress vessel in worsening weather, and lose their own ship as a result (yes, it's happened, the MARINE ELECTRIC lost off the Virginia Capes in 1983, only three survivors).

It's a real risk to them. And the Coast Guard's (informal) motto at the rescue stations is, "you have to go out--you don't have to come back", and they didn't make it up out of thin air either. Yes, it's their job, but making them do it is not a zero-sum game. And as a matter of principle they do not charge money for it, even though sometimes it would seem (to me) more than fair to do so in the event of some particularly sketchy voyages.


And no, we shouldn't prohibit sailing long distances nor singlehanding, but nor should we be dismissive of the risk of rescuers, when going for "maximum" anything (speed, distance, endurance) out there. To me it borders on irresponsibility in *some* instances. I'm not sure this is one of them, I do tend to think this was an atypical failure (meaning hull vice rudder or rig, whose cause may never be known absent that hull to look at).


Full disclosure: I'm retired USCGR so I like them....
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  #32  
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Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

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Originally Posted by christian.hess View Post
..ever sail a laser? bend masts, break tillers and rudders all the time christian
And the chase boat is right there to render assistance, you're not alone, 1000 miles offshore in bad weather - which is my whole point.
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Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

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Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
Yup, I'd happily take my chances with Bernard Stamm on his Open 60 in a winter storm in the Bay of Biscay, rather than with some comparatively geriatric Salty Dawgs of undetermined pedigree on a 30+ year old Out Island 41 in the Gulf Stream, during the passage of a strong cold front in November :-)
I wouldn't do EITHER.

Oh, and a P.S. - I've never heard of an old OI 41 breaking in half in the Gulf Stream, November cold front or no.
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Last edited by SloopJonB; 12-28-2013 at 02:09 PM.
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Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

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Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Dragstars? I don't think so Regards Paulo
Check out Top Fuel - that's exactly what those AC Cats are - insanely quick little spurts of speed under ideal conditions. Have to be virtually rebuilt every few minutes of run time. Any sort of failure results in an epic crash. Nothing about them translates to the rest of their world.....

It's a much closer match to Top Fuel than Formula One. I suspect you have the typical Euro attitude that drag racing is a very crude form of motorsport when the reality is that is is a very SPECIALIZED form of motorsport. The fuelers are extremely sophisticated in their own way - you don't get more than 10,000 horsepower out of an engine by being crude.
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Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

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Originally Posted by SloopJonB View Post
And the chase boat is right there to render assistance, you're not alone, 1000 miles offshore in bad weather - which is my whole point.
????? can I know of what are you talking about?

I was talking about IMOCA boats not about Americas's cup cats

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Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

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Originally Posted by SloopJonB View Post
Check out Top Fuel - that's exactly what those AC Cats are - insanely quick little spurts of speed under ideal conditions. Have to be virtually rebuilt every few minutes of run time. Any sort of failure results in an epic crash. Nothing about them translates to the rest of their world.........
Who is talking about cats? I only said that the American cup cats were the ones like F1 cars when you compared wrongly IMOCA boats with F1 cars.

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Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

Paulo, I never compared the Open boats to fuel dragsters, I compared the AC foiling cats to fuel dragsters.

If you want to regard the Open boats as the epitome of prudent seaworthiness, feel free.

This whole discussion is going nowhere so I'm out.
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Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

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Originally Posted by SloopJonB View Post
Paulo, I never compared the Open boats to fuel dragsters, I compared the AC foiling cats to fuel dragsters.

....
Yes, you are right, my bad. You have compared Open boats (imoca) with F1 and AC foiling cats with dragsters.

Did not noticed but anyway the comparison is not accurate: a dragster goes straight ahead and just for some seconds. The AC cats go for a considerable time around a course with many different changes of direction. In fact F1 is a much fairer comparison, not only in what regards changes of direction around a course as well as in what regards racing time and top high technology.

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Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

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Originally Posted by SloopJonB View Post
And the chase boat is right there to render assistance, you're not alone, 1000 miles offshore in bad weather - which is my whole point.
When I organized bicycle races and rides the USCF and municipal government required me to have medical aid and ambulance service on sight. How is it that ocean racing (under ISAF?) does not carry the same burden?
John
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Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

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Originally Posted by ccriders View Post
When I organized bicycle races and rides the USCF and municipal government required me to have medical aid and ambulance service on sight. How is it that ocean racing (under ISAF?) does not carry the same burden?
John
Well that would mean these guys were taking responsibility for there own actions. But this was not an organized race but a delivery back home from a race. Seems like there should be a lifetime limit to the number of times you can call on the Coast Guard, I think Bernard has reached his limit! Next time he should be billed.
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