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  #41  
Old 12-28-2013
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Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

Rather than a lifetime limit on "freebies" the CG should be permitted to examine your state of preparedness and determine from that if you should have to pay.

If you are experienced and on a well found boat but run into problems - that's why they are there.

If you buy a San Juan 24 for $500 and set off across the Pacific - you pay full freight, plus a penalty.
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  #42  
Old 12-29-2013
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Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

what if that san juan was a marina derelict that was abandoned by an uninspired po owner..???

say it had new rigging, sails stowed inside an all it needed was bottom paint to be safe?

why would you penalize that boat?

I dont agree with that at all, after all before this 21 century and the nets...a 24 ft boat was considered mid size....and perfectly apt for ocean sailing...

plus in any case a san juan 24 is a speck mid ocean as is even a 1000foot cruise ship

I think if anything more focus should be on the skipper(as do many eu contries) and not the boat
after all even a measly san juan 24 is glass and we all know glass has yet to be determined how much REAL life span it has...

soooo with that said

carry on discussion

ps. I say this out os spite almost because for example my spanish captain that I sailed with almost 15k miles had to do sooooooooooooooooooooo much to even set sail, he had to be licensed by the spanish maritime academy only to be a pleasure captain....this just to set sail....

in the us and most western countries all you do is fix a boat and leave...many countries have extreme stringent laws to even aloow you to be on public waters...
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Last edited by christian.hess; 12-29-2013 at 02:06 AM.
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  #43  
Old 12-29-2013
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Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

Can't wait for these boats to be declared unsafe so I can pick one up for cheap. Mile for mile I'm thinking these are the safest sailboats in the world.
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  #44  
Old 12-29-2013
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Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

Quote:
Originally Posted by SloopJonB View Post
Rather than a lifetime limit on "freebies" the CG should be permitted to examine your state of preparedness and determine from that if you should have to pay.

If you are experienced and on a well found boat but run into problems - that's why they are there.

If you buy a San Juan 24 for $500 and set off across the Pacific - you pay full freight, plus a penalty.
That is something I agree. But it would not make sense to examine each boat that goes offshore, so minimum mandatory requirements and regular inspections to evaluate the boat condition (one in each 4 years for instance) and occasional random inspections make all the sense.

Anyway in the case of Stamm's boat or Stamm's qualifications they would find nothing to object. He was not even sailing solo this time. Rare freak accidents due to hidden defects will always happen from time to time no matter the boat.

If you find worrying a boat like an Open 60 and a sailor like Stamm crossing the Atlantic Ocean, even with a gale, what do you say about these things being allowed to cross oceans or to circumnavigate?



Aren't they a much bigger risk in what regards the need of a rescue with the consequent endangerment of other lives?

Quote:
Originally Posted by christian.hess View Post
...
plus in any case a san juan 24 is a speck mid ocean as is even a 1000foot cruise ship
...
....
You are sayng that a Juan 24, or any other 24ft boat is as safe as a 1000ft cruise ship on an Ocean??????

Regarding most EU countries let me say that it is not the sailor that has to be qualified, or at least show that they are qualified to sail on an Ocean, the same happens with the boats that have to be certified class A but not only, they have to be equipped with the minimum safety equipment required for Ocean sailing. The boats are also mandatory inspected each 4 years ( I think that on a new one it takes longer to need an inspection and small variations happen from country to country). There are already an unified law in what regards boat requirements, not yet in what regards sailor qualifications.

Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 12-29-2013 at 10:45 AM.
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  #45  
Old 12-29-2013
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Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

Quote:
Originally Posted by miatapaul View Post
Well that would mean these guys were taking responsibility for there own actions. But this was not an organized race but a delivery back home from a race. Seems like there should be a lifetime limit to the number of times you can call on the Coast Guard, I think Bernard has reached his limit! Next time he should be billed.
That poses the question to know if in what regards sailing activities were a rescue is more probable, like offshore long distance racing, should not be a mandatory collective insurance regarding rescue costs. Certainly the cost of that divided to all would not be too high and it would keep things straight, I mean the risk takers would pay for their safety and not all tax payers.

Risk takers paying for their safety should be the right principle. The alternative is to regulate what is acceptable in terms of risks regarding a rescue. I prefer the first alternative.

Rergards

Paulo
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  #46  
Old 12-29-2013
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Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

Quote:
Originally Posted by SloopJonB View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg
Yup, I'd happily take my chances with Bernard Stamm on his Open 60 in a winter storm in the Bay of Biscay, rather than with some comparatively geriatric Salty Dawgs of undetermined pedigree on a 30+ year old Out Island 41 in the Gulf Stream, during the passage of a strong cold front in November :-)
I wouldn't do EITHER.
So, because YOU wouldn't sail an OI 41 offshore to the Caribbean, does that mean that anyone who chooses to do so should be held responsible for reimbursing for the cost of their (potential) rescue?

What other boats would you add to your list? :-)

Seems like another slope that gets awfully slippery, awfully quickly, to me...

Quote:
Originally Posted by SloopJonB View Post
Oh, and a P.S. - I've never heard of an old OI 41 breaking in half in the Gulf Stream, November cold front or no.
Well, stick one in the middle of a Biscay winter storm, who knows? :-) The reports were that the bulkheads on that OI were "delaminating", and they were taking on water... Wanna take a guess on how much difficulty Bernard Stamm might have had out where they were that night? Mine would be that he might have considered it "fantastic sailing, with no need for the 'handbrake', yet..." :-)

Stamm has twice won RTW races, the Around Alone and Velux 5 Oceans, back to back... His record the Transatlantic record for monohulls stood for TEN YEARS. The guy is clearly one of the most accomplished solo sailors, ever...

The accomplishments of sailors like Slocum, Dumas, Knox-Johnston seem like far riskier ventures to what guys like Stamm are doing, today... K-J was the ONLY sailor to finish the first Golden Globe, and yet is universally respected for what is generally considered a heroic feat of seamanship, and was ultimately knighted for his accomplishments...

Do you really believe a 300-day go around on a boat like this, 35 years ago, was inherently safer than what today's generation of RTW racers are doing?

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Old 12-29-2013
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Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

Yeah Paulo, ask the Australian coasties how many of your long distance racers have had to be rescued in the Southern Ocean and you might come up with a different answer on the insurance question and WHO is actually being rescued.....mostly the guys on the hi tech go fast, surely never to fail race boats....mostly Euro dudes too. Oh and a few ladies.
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  #48  
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Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ccriders View Post
When I organized bicycle races and rides the USCF and municipal government required me to have medical aid and ambulance service on sight. How is it that ocean racing (under ISAF?) does not carry the same burden?
John
Uhhh, maybe because there's just a SLIGHT difference between following a herd of bicyclists on a public road in a motorized vehicle(s), and attempting to chase a fleet of racebboats spread out over tens of thousands of square miles of open ocean???

Quote:
Originally Posted by SloopJonB View Post
Rather than a lifetime limit on "freebies" the CG should be permitted to examine your state of preparedness and determine from that if you should have to pay.

If you are experienced and on a well found boat but run into problems - that's why they are there.

If you buy a San Juan 24 for $500 and set off across the Pacific - you pay full freight, plus a penalty.
So, how would that work, say, in the example of the OI 41 abandoned in the Salty Dawg Rally?

A CG rescue swimmer, who jumps into the ocean in the middle of the night, but never sets foot aboard the boat, is also charged with 'evaluating" the condition/state of preparedness of the yacht?

Hmmm, perhaps we on various internet sailing forums could serve a the 'Jury of One's Peers' when these cases are brought up for evaluation? :-)

You do realize that the USCG already has the authority do declare any voyage "Manifestly Unsafe", and prohibit departure, or 'force' a vessel underway to be abandoned, right?

And yet, it is a power that is VERY rarely exercised... A classic recent example is that of the RAW FAITH, which finally went down off Cape Cod a few years ago... That piece of crap sat under the CG's nose in Rockland for years, embarking on several false starts which either failed, or required rescue, and yet they never did anything to prevent that moron from trying again...

Maine-built ship Raw Faith sinks off Cape Cod coast ? Midcoast ? Bangor Daily News ? BDN Maine





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  #49  
Old 12-29-2013
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Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

Quote:
Originally Posted by aeventyr60 View Post
Yeah Paulo, ask the Australian coasties how many of your long distance racers have had to be rescued in the Southern Ocean and you might come up with a different answer on the insurance question and WHO is actually being rescued.....mostly the guys on the hi tech go fast, surely never to fail race boats....mostly Euro dudes too. Oh and a few ladies.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
That poses the question to know if in what regards sailing activities were a rescue is more probable, like offshore long distance racing, should not be a mandatory collective insurance regarding rescue costs. Certainly the cost of that divided to all would not be too high and it would keep things straight, I mean the risk takers would pay for their safety and not all tax payers.

Risk takers paying for their safety should be the right principle. The alternative is to regulate what is acceptable in terms of risks regarding a rescue. I prefer the first alternative.

..
You mean Australian tax payers like to pay for the rescue of European sail racers?

Read again what I said. I said that it should be the racers and the organization to pay for the rescues trough a mandatory insurance as well as all that push the risk envelope beyond the reasonable.

Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 12-29-2013 at 04:55 PM.
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  #50  
Old 12-29-2013
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Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

Found some interesting stats on the Vendee races.

Since it began there have been 138 total entries

DNFs amounted to the following;

18 rig failures.
14 miscellaneous - from medical issues to DSQ for receiving assistance.
11 rudder failures
9 keel failures
6 capsizes
3 lost at sea
3 went ashore
2 hull failures

That's a 48% DNF rate, 36% due to catastrophic equipment failure of one sort or another (assuming the capsizes & lost at sea were due to equipment failure).

You can draw your own conclusions but to my mind that list does not indicate a bunch of strong & seaworthy boats.

It looks more like a typical NASCAR race.

Details here
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