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  #51  
Old 12-29-2013
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Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

Quote:
Originally Posted by SloopJonB View Post
Found some interesting stats on the Vendee races.

Since it began there have been 138 total entries

DNFs amounted to the following;

18 rig failures.
14 miscellaneous - from medical issues to DSQ for receiving assistance.
11 rudder failures
9 keel failures
6 capsizes
3 lost at sea
3 went ashore
2 hull failures

That's a 48% DNF rate, 36% due to catastrophic equipment failure of one sort or another (assuming the capsizes & lost at sea were due to equipment failure).

You can draw your own conclusions but to my mind that list does not indicate a bunch of strong & seaworthy boats.

It looks more like a typical NASCAR race.

Details here Vendée Globe - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Not exactly shining examples of successful design, are they?
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  #52  
Old 12-29-2013
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Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

When I first started sailing some 45 years ago a very old sailor told me , "Never underestimate the power of the sea".
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  #53  
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Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dog Ship View Post
When I first started sailing some 45 years ago a very old sailor told me , "Never underestimate the power of the sea".
Excellent advice...

Although, I suspect there are few people on earth less likely to underestimate the power of the sea, than a professional veteran of multiple Southern Ocean solo circumnavigations...


Seems a bit like reminding a Formula One driver, or a World Cup Downhill Racer, about the dangers of speed... :-)
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Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
Uhhh, maybe because there's just a SLIGHT difference between following a herd of bicyclists on a public road in a motorized vehicle(s), and attempting to chase a fleet of racebboats spread out over tens of thousands of square miles of open]
Ok, so my point is:
race organizers are responsible to provide a safe venue,
Inspect equipment for compliance with design requirements and maintenance,
Sort competitors into skill/experience classes,
Control the race course,
Referee the event,
And provide emergency medical aid.
That is what the USCF requires.
Municipalities provide on a reimbursable basis police and ambulance service.
All of this is paid for from entry fees and sponsor contributions.

If your argument is that it is not easy or is too expensive to provide this level of race support, then maybe ocean racing should not be allowed.
If your argument is that it is not feasible, then take a look at the ocean fishing fleets to see how they locate and descend upon a school of fish and take almost every last one of them from the water. With satellite communication and tracking, boats that carry air craft, etc., etc. keeping track of and rescuing competitors is not impossible, just expensive, an expense organizers, sponsors and competitors are willing to transfer to others.
Also, mentioned earlier was the unfeasibility of inspecting all boats, yet we do that for automobiles, for not so much cost to the owner. Odds are that if race consortiums had to pay for rescues resulting from equipment failures (keels that fall off, rudders that break away, masts that fall down, etc.,) sailboat design would benefit greatly and result in fast and safe boats.
John
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Old 12-29-2013
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Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

Quote:
Originally Posted by SloopJonB View Post
Found some interesting stats on the Vendee races.

Since it began there have been 138 total entries

DNFs amounted to the following;

18 rig failures.
14 miscellaneous - from medical issues to DSQ for receiving assistance.
11 rudder failures
9 keel failures
6 capsizes
3 lost at sea
3 went ashore
2 hull failures

That's a 48% DNF rate, 36% due to catastrophic equipment failure of one sort or another (assuming the capsizes & lost at sea were due to equipment failure).

You can draw your own conclusions but to my mind that list does not indicate a bunch of strong & seaworthy boats.

It looks more like a typical NASCAR race.

Details here Vendée Globe - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
You give me a lot of work. You could get your data analysis straight. Having look carefully at the data provided on the link you posted and looking and searching in another places for missing information, considering only boat failures related with that type of boat the number is not 36% but 31.9%.

You are assuming wrongly that lost on sea has to do with boat failure. Normally it means only that the skipper went overboard, a problem more common on the old days then now, when many maneuvers implied going out of the cockpit.

I considering all problems related directly with this type of boat (breakage of masts, booms, broken rudders, capsizes , keel problems, hull problems) and disregarded abandons that had nothing to do with the boat (health problems, going overboard, groundings, collisions with other boats) or with systems that are used in all boats like automatic pilot, electrical problems, sail problems. I did not count also a boat damage while Marc was trying to rescue another competitor (the boat was damaged by a collision with the capsized boat).

But even so that percentage is not fair that is not fair because those boats have being continually bettered not only in speed but also in seaworthiness and reliability. What counts are the numbers related with the last generation of Open 60's, the ones we are talking about, Stamm's boat.

Regarding that and the last Vendee Globe, considering the same criteria the percentage of boats that have abandoned due to problems related with that particular boat design was 20%

Comparing what it is comparable and looking at the only solo non-stop circumnavigations race made with no racing boats, the type of old shoes you seem to consider more reliable, on the 1968-1969 race the percentage of boats that have abandoned was 88,8%

You seem not to understand the number of things that can go wrong on a solo circumnavigation. Take for instance the famous grand mother Socrates that have tried several times in her Najad,to circumnavigate solo non-stop and have to satisfy herself with one circumnavigation with a stop for repairing the boat, or that one on an older boat (certainly one that you like) that has been object of a recent thread. He had to stop for repair the rigging.

http://www.oceannavigator.com/March-...ation-attempt/

http://www.svnereida.com/

Glen Wakefield Forced to Turn Back Due to Rigging Failure

A 20% boat failure taking into consideration that, contrary to the Grand Ma and the other guy, these ones push their boats near the limit, is a fantastic performance that, off course, will be bettered on the next race and with better, faster and more reliable boats. Off course,If the boats on the Vendee Globe were not pushed hard and were just used as cruising boats the breakage would be obviously be much smaller and their reliability even better.

Do you think I am crazy and that type of boats are not used for cruising? Think again, there are several fast offshore cruisers that take as model these boats (not to mention the huge influence on most modern cruisers in what regards hull design). Take a look at this onel:

<iframe width="960" height="540" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/epfspZc-Ajs" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 12-29-2013 at 07:22 PM.
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Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

Looks like the sea floor rising rapidly there. That may have had something to do with the sea conditions, as could the first sign of current coming out of the channel.
Shows how marginally designed these, "designed by the worlds top experts " boats are. Looks downright fragile, something no cruiser would accept. This is a clear example of why cruisers should avoid like the plague, the gear designed for racing.
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Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
Excellent advice...

Although, I suspect there are few people on earth less likely to underestimate the power of the sea, than a professional veteran of multiple Southern Ocean solo circumnavigations...

Vendée Globe 2012 - Week 5 Highlights - YouTube

Seems a bit like reminding a Formula One driver, or a World Cup Downhill Racer, about the dangers of speed... :-)
Point taken,
but at the time I was 7 years old rigging up my sabot to go out on a pretty nasty day.
It was advice that has stuck with me regarding everything I do, whether it be on the water or working on my boat.
I have also never had to be rescued.........yet.
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Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ccriders View Post
If your argument is that it is not easy or is too expensive to provide this level of race support, then maybe ocean racing should not be allowed.

... keeping track of and rescuing competitors is not impossible, just expensive, an expense organizers, sponsors and competitors are willing to transfer to others.
Also, mentioned earlier was the unfeasibility of inspecting all boats, yet we do that for automobiles, for not so much cost to the owner. Odds are that if race consortiums had to pay for rescues resulting from equipment failures (keels that fall off, rudders that break away, masts that fall down, etc.,) sailboat design would benefit greatly and result in fast and safe boats.
John
Race organizers keep track of the boats and inspect the mandatory safety equipment. On serious races, like the vendee globe the boats are inspected to see if they are according to the rules in what regards safety and other aspects. The IMOCA and the 40class offshore racers have hugely demanding safety requirements. They are obliged to show if the boat can be returned to its feet in a flat sea. No cruising boat is able to do that or would be able to pass the safety requirements they demand on those boats.

<iframe width="960" height="540" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/SNZZnbioW80" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

They are also unthinkable. Even broken in two, an unheard extreme case, Stamm's boat keep floating by many hours.

I agree with you regarding the need to inspect offshore boats but not only racing boats, all of them. You seem to be convinced that the rescue of boats on offshore races is the more important percentage of offshore rescues but that is not the case. They are just a very small percentage even if the ones that make the main news.

You seem also not knowing that almost all major hull, rig, keel and rudder as well as building techniques, all developments that make boat design advance come basically from the racing field, were they are tested before being used to make improved cruising sailboats. Solo offshore racing boats have been the major source of developments for cruising boats in the last 30 years. The fact that the boats are hugely powerful and have to be tamed by a solo sailor helped to develop hulls, rigs and furling systems that today are common on our boats, making boats easier to sail and allowing sailors to solo sail (or sail with a wife) bigger safer boats.

When you see today most people offshore in boats bigger than 45ft with a small crew, you owe that possibility to the developments brought by this type of racing.

Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 12-29-2013 at 08:31 PM.
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Old 12-29-2013
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Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ccriders View Post
Ok, so my point is:
race organizers are responsible to provide a safe venue,
Inspect equipment for compliance with design requirements and maintenance,
Sort competitors into skill/experience classes,
Control the race course,
Referee the event,
And provide emergency medical aid.
That is what the USCF requires.
Municipalities provide on a reimbursable basis police and ambulance service.
All of this is paid for from entry fees and sponsor contributions.

If your argument is that it is not easy or is too expensive to provide this level of race support, then maybe ocean racing should not be allowed.
Wow... :-)

They've been sailing the biennial Newport-Bermuda Race for over a century, now - and it has NEVER been safer than it is today... But, because the CCA and RBYC cannot supply a fleet of ambulance/hospital ships to trail the fleet, or "control the race course" over the 635 miles between Newport and Bermuda, we should consider "No Longer Allowing" such a competition??? Seriously???

Quote:

Over the past 100 years, some 4,500 boats and 46,000 men and women have raced to Bermuda. Founder Tom Day identified the reason so many men and women sail when he said that they are seizing the opportunity “to get a smell of the sea and forget for the time being that there is such a thing as God’s green earth in the universe.”
The late, great Carleton Mitchell sailed his fat little centerboarder FINISTERRE to 3 consecutive overall wins in the Bermuda classic... I'm guessing those low lifelines would just be one of her numerous features that wouldn't pass today's ISAF muster...

Good thing Mitchell's ashes were scattered in the Gulf Stream off Miami, otherwise he'd be turning over in his grave, assuming he had access to Sailnet... :-)


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Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

Quote:
Originally Posted by SloopJonB View Post
Check out Top Fuel - that's exactly what those AC Cats are - insanely quick little spurts of speed under ideal conditions. Have to be virtually rebuilt every few minutes of run time. Any sort of failure results in an epic crash. Nothing about them translates to the rest of their world.....

It's a much closer match to Top Fuel than Formula One. I suspect you have the typical Euro attitude that drag racing is a very crude form of motorsport when the reality is that is is a very SPECIALIZED form of motorsport. The fuelers are extremely sophisticated in their own way - you don't get more than 10,000 horsepower out of an engine by being crude.
Yes, Drag racing is crude. Who cares about brute power? Around here we care about skill.

But since you like Dragsters, just for you, have a look at a sail dragster

<iframe width="960" height="540" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/DCPx8wQZ5KE" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Regards

Paulo
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