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  #61  
Old 12-29-2013
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Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

Context Jon.
Safety can be done. But who pays when problems arise?
These practices (boats having catastrophic failures) may lead to direct charges for all rescues if something doesn't change. The Feds are just beginning to tighten the belt and who knows where budget cuts are going? Inshore sailors are already financially responsible for towing, and if their boat sinks or washes ashore, the environmental clean up costs.
Ocean racing may be the last bastion of the Wild West, and that's fine. But who pays for their rescues and how do the payers benefit? Trickle down technology to the lesser mortals that just want to go out cruising?
Ocean racing needs to be responsible for it's events.
And Paolo, don't you see that you can build a boat that puts too much strain on itself and its crew? The whole shebang has to hang together in the toughest situations and cross the finish line to be of value. Otherwise it's just more junk fouling the ocean. And maybe a body or two.
John
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Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ccriders View Post
..
...
Ocean racing may be the last bastion of the Wild West, and that's fine. But who pays for their rescues and how do the payers benefit? Trickle down technology to the lesser mortals that just want to go out cruising?
Ocean racing needs to be responsible for it's events.
And Paolo, don't you see that you can build a boat that puts too much strain on itself and its crew? The whole shebang has to hang together in the toughest situations and cross the finish line to be of value. Otherwise it's just more junk fouling the ocean. And maybe a body or two.
John
you seem not to listen:

Racing offshore rescues are a tiny percentage of offshore rescues. The vast majority are just badly prepared cruisers or badly prepared boats, mostly old cruiser boats.

I have told you that the percentage of retirements due to boat breakage on the last solo circumnavigation race without assistance was 20%. They were racing and pushing the boats the way Jon showed on that video.

If they were sailing without pressure and at a more reasonable pace what would be the breakage? half of that?: 10% and if they were sailing just a bit over the speed of a normal cruising boat what would be the breakage? 5%?.

Take a look at normal cruising boats that are doing circumnavigations and see how many times they have to stop for making small repairs...or big repairs. Each of those stops would be the equivalent of an abandon on a non stop circumnavigation.

Making a circumnavigation without stop in any boat is a major accomplishment for the boat and for the material. Making one racing many times over 20K and have a retirement tax of 20% due to boat breakage is incredibly good...but not enough for them because to win they have to arrive and they want all to arrive: tomorrow offshore racing boats will be not only faster but also safer, as it have been happening through the years.

Regards

Paulo
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  #63  
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Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ccriders View Post
Context Jon.
Safety can be done. But who pays when problems arise?
These practices (boats having catastrophic failures) may lead to direct charges for all rescues if something doesn't change. The Feds are just beginning to tighten the belt and who knows where budget cuts are going? Inshore sailors are already financially responsible for towing, and if their boat sinks or washes ashore, the environmental clean up costs.
Ocean racing may be the last bastion of the Wild West, and that's fine. But who pays for their rescues and how do the payers benefit? Trickle down technology to the lesser mortals that just want to go out cruising?
Ocean racing needs to be responsible for it's events.
Well, then - wanna compare the number of USCG SAR missions/abandonments involving offshore racers, and those involving independent, individual recreational sailors over the past decade, or two?

I don't have the numbers, but I suspect it's not even close...

Last edited by JonEisberg; 12-29-2013 at 09:56 PM.
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Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

Whatever the percentage of failures, one-of-three or one-of-five, it is too high by several orders of magnitude. How many of these boat designers have been on the Ocean when it's up on its hind legs, with a gale howling like a Banshee and shredding the tops off the waves, the wind and water clawing at the boat like wild things, probing for weakness?

Pioneer aviator Antoine de Saint Exupéry said "It seems that perfection is reached not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away." Maybe the designers have taken too much away.

It seems the designers of these
Quote:
probably the safest and strongest sailboats around
"high-performance" racing boats are hoping that they can get away with shaving off a few more kilograms of hull in hopes of gaining an extra meter-per-hour of speed while hoping the crew can avoid conditions that stress the boat beyond its limits.

Hope is not a plan.

Yes, there are fantastic new materials available, lighter, stronger, more resilient, et cetera ad nauseum. The Sea is still the Sea, and the designers have to design their boats to meet the worst she can dish out, not hope they never need the strength required to survive that worst, else they put the boats' crews and rescue crews at risk needlessly.

A 20% -- or even 10% --failure rate doesn't cut it. How much would you fly if 'only' one percent of airliners were likely to fall out of the sky? How much driving if 'only' five percent of automobiles were subject to catastrophic failure?
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Last edited by manatee; 12-29-2013 at 11:26 PM.
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  #65  
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Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

context to all posters here...its not just the design of the boat its because you are pushing said boat to its limits...you can do this on ANY boat

all boats have a weak point....there is no be it ALL sailboat

simple
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  #66  
Old 12-30-2013
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Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

Quote:
Originally Posted by manatee View Post
Whatever the percentage of failures, one-of-three or one-of-five, it is too high by several orders of magnitude. How many of these boat designers have been on the Ocean when it's up on its hind legs, with a gale howling like a Banshee and shredding the tops off the waves, the wind and water clawing at the boat like wild things, probing for weakness?
...
Obviously you don't know about the designers of those boats. some of them are very experienced offshore sailors, some even were offshore racers.

Funny that you consider that 20% in retirements due to boat problems is too much for a solo non-stop solo racing circumnavigation. I guess you don't imagine how hard is the material pushed over a solo circumnavigation that will represent more miles than most cruising boats will do during their entire life time

Have a look at the ones that tried to circumnavigate non stop solo in cruising boats and you will see that the percentage of retirement is worse than that...and they were not racing, just trying to do it.

Besides one thing is to have to abandon the race for several boat problems other thing is not being able to sail the damaged boat back to port and to need to call for a rescue.

Do you know that on the last vendee Globe only one sailor had called for help and was rescued? and that all the others that retired sailed their own boats to port? Some even to the base port?

That make 1 in 20 or if you want in percentage 5% in what regards the need of a rescue.

Regards

Paulo
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  #67  
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Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

We seem to be getting arguments for the sake of arguing. Jon and Paulo can you distill you position in the context of "Wow, a 60 ft sailboat broke in half while sailing down wind in 45+/- kts of wind with storm jib and quadruple reefed main"? The context summed up beautifully by "Too much engineering, too little boat"

The inversion test means nothing - no mast, no sails, no wind, no waves, no crew. How did the boat perform in the real world? It broke in half and sank leaving its crew to a very iffy, expensive rescue.

Ocean race organizers are not responsible for the events that unfold, yet governments around the world are? Really?

Comparisons with people out cruising suffering equipment failures and encountering storms is a red herring just as you would not compare F-1 auto racing with the summer vacation in the old station wagon.
Also, remember that all these statistical swaps suffer from the tyranny of small numbers.
John
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Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

the inversion test is just to verify that when upside down the skipper has air pockets, that it will remain at a certain angle, etc...also that the boat itself will not sink completely.

the air pockets have been vital in saving some famous sailors...

I clearly remember reading a bit about this, some big catamaran too that flipped mid ocean and all crew stayed trapped inside waiting for help while they took turns signaling from the overturned amas...

didnt autissier do this too? cant remeber...

its a test that while not completely conclusive DOES add a major of known safety

again I stress that any design can be pushed to its limits...its not so much the design(yes there are faulty designs out there we all know that, BUT) any boat when pushed to its limits by sailors who cut there TOOTHBRUSHES IN HALF to save weight for example you multiply your chances of failure in some way by a million percent

anybody who argues this has never raced or been around race boats or anything race like

not for sake of argument but for reality sake.

they say speed kills right, well take that saying loosely and apply it to a boat, mid ocean...racing...NON STOP

is it the same hitting a rock at 5 knots or 30? is it the same plowing your bow into the next wave ahead of you because you are going faster than the waves or is it safer to be plowed from behind?

sorry that sounds weird but think about it...

anywhoo
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Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

Paulo- in another thread to paraphrase you "performance cruisers/racers will never understand cruisers" and the contrapositive. Think this thread suggests that truth.
Us cruisers have much of our material worth tied up in our vessels. We are interested in in getting there in one piece ( both our boats and ourselves). You say these boats continue to sail in what we would consider survival circumstances. We would throw out the jsd and put the saloon cushions on the sole and wait it out. You say these boats do untold miles before being retired. Our boats do decades of cruising with maintenance as time and money allow. You say these boats do 20kts. Before building my boat I had my bride cruise on a multi and did 20+kts. She said "never again".
You are right it is a different paradigm. I still find great joy in doing 200nm days on my boat but also find joy in the comforts of a solid cruising boat allowing the activities of daily living to be done without stress in a seaway. For many the need to minimize weight, maximize vigilance, degrade the ride and not include creature comforts degrades rather then enhances the experience. Jimmy repeats what Bob has said elsewhere "Weight is the enemy of speed". Jon notes these boats do what they can to decrease weight. Weight means additional structure. Additional structure means opportunity for additional strength. As availability of new materials or better use of existing materials has been increasing you are right race boats get stronger and safer. But Jon is right there is a point at which either due to expense, ease of maintenance, need for higher levels of vigilance, or degradation of comfort race boat advances have no useful meaning to cruisers. Yes that old Swan is a remarkable boat as are the new Swans incorporating more modern materials. Yes these racers are remarkable people taking their lives in their hands when they cast off. But Jon point is equally valid us cruisers don't want to take our lives in our hands when we cast off.
I think all these organized races should require all entries to contribute to a pit fund. In other words self insure. That way when any entity be it a government or ship is involved in SAR they would have funds available for re imbursement.
I also think getting on any boat and doing any passage with the expectation of any catastrophic failure rate is beyond my comprehension. Think these guys are the highest level of sailors well beyond the AC crowd and fully deserve to be the heroes that the people of France view them as.
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Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

Quote:
Originally Posted by outbound View Post
...
I think all these organized races should require all entries to contribute to a pit fund. In other words self insure. That way when any entity be it a government or ship is involved in SAR they would have funds available for re imbursement.
,,,
Hummm... these Vendee Globe guys with 20 boats circled the planet making an incredible number of miles on the worst seas of the planet and only one of them called for a rescue while on that recent cruiser rally near the American coast (just some few thousands of miles) three or four cruising boats called for a rescue and you think these racers should have a self insurance in what regards rescue?

I do not disagree but it seems obviously that should extend to all that go offshore according with the risks they are taking.

On the last two more radical races, the VOR and the Vendee globe only one boat called for help and was not able to reach port by its own means.

I have been following the Coast guards rescue calls and only on the last months they have been out offshore 10 times or more for the rescue of cruisers, many that seem badly prepared for what they are attempting or are sailing old boats in bad condition.

So yes, I agree, tax payers should not pay for the rescue of boaters that are there not for need but for choice and pleasure.

It should not be difficult for the insurance companies to do an insurance to cover rescue costs as I am quite sure they would be able to evaluate correctly what are the boats that are more vulnerable in what regards the need for a rescue, what seasons, what waters and what sailing experience the skipper has and charge prices accordingly with that.

I agree with you, it seems more than fair to me

It would also prevent crazy guys to go with unsuitable boats offshore because or they would not be insurable or they will pay so much that they will think twice before doing something as risky.

Regards

Paulo
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