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Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

27K views 212 replies 28 participants last post by  Lou452 
#1 ·
Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

This guy is as hardcore as they come, one of the toughest sailors on the planet. Sounds like he and his crew are very lucky to be alive, after what had to be an amazing rescue, under extremely difficult conditions...

We were a little ahead of the front, downwind. There was a steady 43-45 knots [of wind], but it was manageable. We were prepared for this gale. We were under storm jib, with four reefs in the mainsail. Clearly, we really had the handbrake on, but in a wave the boat broke in two just behind the daggerboards.

"The mast did not fall immediately. We quickly closed all boat bulkheads and the rig fell over the stern. Very quickly we asked for help and organised our survival plan.

"We were prepared to leave the boat. The sea was huge, so we tried to assess the risk of damage to Cheminées Poujoulat. Damien and I tried to cut away the 60ft mast, but we did not succeed. It was really too dangerous. However, we managed to hold it a little below the water and stop it battering so badly against the hull. Afterwards we went inside and got all our survival gear together. We were not sure how long the boat would stay afloat."

Read more at Bernard Stamm rescue: 'I swam for my life' | Yachting World
Not a place I'd want to have to go swimming, during a storm on Christmas Eve...

 
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#150 ·
Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

"We're saying when masts keep failing, rudders breaking, and keels keep falling off, there is a systemic failure to adequately address the underlying causes"

Did you consider that in the world of gran prix racing yachts everything possible is being done to reduce weight? "Engineering" relies upon accurate identification of the loads. That is darn difficult with a sailing machine. The ocean is volitile and unpredictable at times. The deigners could increase safety factors but then they are in a grey area and adding weight. I think it is inevitable that racing yachts designed to compete at this level will break.

Marty:
I was an expert witness on the Texas case. Sad story.

But carry on. I am simply a casual observer to all of this.
 
#151 ·
Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

"We're saying when masts keep failing, rudders breaking, and keels keep falling off, there is a systemic failure to adequately address the underlying causes"

Did you consider that in the world of gran prix racing yachts everything possible is being done to reduce weight? "Engineering" relies upon accurate identification of the loads. That is darn difficult with a sailing machine. The ocean is volitile and unpredictable at times. The deigners could increase safety factors but then they are in a grey area and adding weight. I think it is inevitable that racing yachts designed to compete at this level will break.
Yup, probably almost as inevitable as rudders failing on Catalinas in a Salty Dawg Rally... :)

 
#152 ·
Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

We're saying when masts keep failing, rudders breaking, and keels keep falling off, there is a systemic failure to adequately address the underlying causes.
Uhumm, as masts, rudders, keels doesn't happen to other boats?

Breaking the boat in two is something else. Unusual, from what I know. Not unheard of, but unusual.
(As, during a hard race around here during the 1960-ies at least one very well-built S&S 36 ft broke up in pieces).

Captain Stamms' boat should have been *stronger than new* after the repairs.
From what I have understood, repairing carbon fibers is extremely difficult.
I agree with Paulo & Co, that most likely this repairment is the origin to the break-up of Stamms boat.
Has then very little to do with this class of boats. Not a good basis for generalisations.

/J
 
#154 ·
Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

Schotbruch:
Thank you for posting that. I agree. A post like that says far more about the poster than it does about the true subject matter. But I find it rather typical and ignorant. I have zero interest in drag racing also. In fact, come to think of it, I dont know anyone who is interestred in drag racing at all. But I have only lived here for 55 years.
 
#158 ·
Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

Great story but isn't that what sophisticated race boats are suppose to for us cruisers. Something breaks . Next time around they make it better. Still there is a dynamic.CF is stronger then " tradition" core which is stronger per weight then solid glass. Even knowing this solid grp is the easiest to fix. So some us Luddite beer swilling nascar watching Yankee doodles still build new boats in solid grp.
By the way Paulo I fit every stereotype and heritage mentioned above. With initials after my name from multiple Ivy League schools believe I have some small measure of sophistication.
My mom was an art teacher. Ended up setting the curriculum for NYC . Got a presidents award. She was very pedantic. My dad and sibling didn't listen to her much. You seem a gentleman. Look forward to an apology.
Regards
 
#161 ·
Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

...
By the way Paulo I fit every stereotype and heritage mentioned above. With initials after my name from multiple Ivy League schools believe I have some small measure of sophistication.
My mom was an art teacher. Ended up setting the curriculum for NYC . Got a presidents award. She was very pedantic. My dad and sibling didn't listen to her much. You seem a gentleman. Look forward to an apology.
Regards
Can I know what you are talking about? I never talked about Blacks and Jews, I asked why someone else was talking about Blacks and Jews regarding an answer to a post of mine, this guy on this post:

Can you leave out such primitive stereotyping comments, please? This is a prime example of the oh-so-sophisticated Europeans looking down on the oh-so-primitive American brutes. We can do without that, thank you very much.

For the record, I am American and dragster racing has zero appeal to me. But you will not find me making snide remarks about the sports Europeans like, or Blacks, or Jews.
Before accusing someone of something you should be sure of what you are accusing people for. I know that I have never had in any circumstances made any racist comment so I guess that is you that should apologize for accusing me for something I never did.

Regards

Paulo
 
#159 ·
Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

Paulo I live. In southern New England . My earliest academic publications were concerning a genetic disease seen in folks from the Azores. I known many folks of mainland and island descent. Part of my family is from the. Iberian peninsula . My sister had assess to a genetics lab and spent time researching family records. Like me and Spinoza you might want to investigate. You may find your mitochondrial or nuclear DNA carries Jewish and African genes.
Regards
 
#162 ·
Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

Man:
You are correct and because I work in this field everyday I try to be cautious before pointing my finger. For me to come to a conclusion on that failure would require a lot more background information than we have here. Then I would have my own long list of questions. Then I would need some quiet time to sit and think about the particulars. Then I'd have another list of questions. And maybe then I would come to a conclusion.

I can't say anymore about this particular failure. I simply don't know wneough at this time. But I am learning more and more by reading the thread.

Paulo:
Yes, your comments, regardless of how you intended them to be taken (I can't know that) do sound like typical, European stereotyping of Americans. I understand that it's popular for some Europeans to put all Americans into one basket but it is far from an accurate reality.

Take me for example. I am a totally strange guy. The only people that like me are my dogs.
 
#164 ·
Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

....
Paulo:
Yes, your comments, regardless of how you intended them to be taken (I can't know that) do sound like typical, European stereotyping of Americans. I understand that it's popular for some Europeans to put all Americans into one basket but it is far from an accurate reality.

Take me for example. I am a totally strange guy. The only people that like me are my dogs.
That goes both ways, like Americans stereotopyng Europeans but anyway even if one is accused of that the causation should be explicit regarding what is the subject of the stereotype. The accusation can be true or unfounded. Certainly it is unfounded regarding Blacks and Jews since I never talked about them:rolleyes:

As your example, you are a native Australian so it is natural you are a peculiar American:D

Regards

Paulo
 
#166 ·
Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

In a repari like done on this boat. and other types of vehicles. the issue becomes, can we humans, even x-ray machines etc see the WHOLE damage(d) area as to what needs to be repaired, and how.

It becomes a fix it, hope it holds together no matter what.......

An SC70 was holed locally a few years back. While it is repaired..........the basic overall boat will probably never be the same. Yeah they found an old mold, got it, cut it up to patch the hole etc. BUT, this particular boat will never again at least overall safe and sanely be able to race at 20+ knots down wind etc with a race crew, full power under spin and main along with hopping if you will wave to wave as some of the higher speed boats can do. Be it sail or power!

The potential here is that this boat should (potentially) not have been out crossing oceans etc any more. More of a local coastal cruiser style work would be ok, but even as depowered as it was........something was probably stressed during the initial grounding/hitting of something, not seen, left broken, as such, in the conditions the boat was in, it was ripe for breaking apart.

Probably why a lot of cars/trucks these days, the body repair places replace everything with new vs trying to straighten/bondo things together. You can never put it back to 100% that way, only 80-90%. Even 99% may not be good enough vs 100%.

Marty
 
#167 · (Edited)
Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

Paulo:
I was born in Toldedo, Ohio. You need to buy my book.
But I did grow up in Australia so you are pretty much correct in that.

I am an American.

Did you get that magazine?
PM me your mailing address. I'll send you one of my cartoon calendars.
 
#168 · (Edited)
Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

Paulo:
I was born in Toldedo, Ohio. You need to buy my book.
But I did grow up in Australia so you are pretty much correct in that.

I am an American.

Did you get that magazine?
PM me your mailing address. I'll send you one of my cartoon calendars.
Even if you had come has a kid to America I am pretty sure you would be and feel an American, I was just kidding.

Has I had said I have posted about that article and the boat on the interesting boat thread recently. The boat found the owners that it deserved, a famous live aboard Germany Family that has being cruising and circumnavigating on the last 7 years. They have changed their old steel boat, the iron lady for the boat you designed and was made in Holland.

I don't have the magazine but I have posted plenty of photos. The boat is nicer than when it was new:) I am sure I have posted less than a month ago. Go back on the thread and you will found it. They seem very satisfied with the new boat.

Regards

Paulo
 
#169 ·
Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

Again, I am not referring to Captain Stamm's boat, it obviously is a special case. I'm referring to Paulo's 5% failure rate in this type of boat during a circumnavigation

Rather than Formula 1 racing, I think these boats are in something comparable to the off-road Baja peninsula races. Sorry Paulo, I don't know a European equivalent.

Bob: Sounds like a good plan. Too bad they couldn't save the hull,- the forensic analysis would have been fascinating. Have you built with carbon, or have some familiarity with it? From the little I've read, it's subject to cyclic stress induced failure, and there's no good way of predicting it. And cyclic stress is one thing there's plenty of on a sailboat. Anyone dogs like can't be all bad. Think how boring the world would be without us weirdos. :)

Jon: I understand the weight/speed thing. If the boats were crewed by robots it wouldn't matter so much to me. These aren't off-the-shelf coastal-cruising picnic boats. You're sending crews out in boats that are advertised to be tough enough to complete a circumnavigation that have a one-in-twenty chance of suffering a catastrophic gear failure. If I sold cars like that, there'd be more lawyers and government agencies on my back than you could count. How long would Boeing last if 5% of their planes dropped an engine mid-flight?

(That's the editorial "You", by the way.)
 
#170 · (Edited)
Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

Again, I am not referring to Captain Stamm's boat, it obviously is a special case. I'm referring to Paulo's 5% failure rate in this type of boat during a circumnavigation

Rather than Formula 1 racing, I think these boats are in something comparable to the off-road Baja peninsula races. Sorry Paulo, I don't know a European equivalent.
I agree, the equivalent had already been utilized by me. Paris-Dakar rally racers. In fact Paris-Dakar is though than a Baja, being like a Baja that lasts for 15 days. but In fact this race is much more though than a Paris-Dakar where they can remake the cars each night. Here there are no outside help and the race instead of 15 days lasts for almost 90.

.. I understand the weight/speed thing. If the boats were crewed by robots it wouldn't matter so much to me. These aren't off-the-shelf coastal-cruising picnic boats. You're sending crews out in boats that are advertised to be tough enough to complete a circumnavigation that have a one-in-twenty chance of suffering a catastrophic gear failure. If I sold cars like that, there'd be more lawyers and government agencies on my back than you could count. How long would Boeing last if 5% of their planes dropped an engine mid-flight?
You continue to think about these boats has if the were cruising boats. They are not they are RACING BOATS. Compare the percentage of retirement in the Paris-Dakar, or even on a Baja 1000 and you will see that it will not be smaller, quite the contrary, it will be higher.

These boats are not "driven" prudently as a cruising boat would, but pushing the limits to win.

Regards

Paulo
 
#173 ·
Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

That's the key.Paulo's right. They are race boats being raced by professional racers. They are cognizant of the risks and accept them. I doubt in this highly charged competitive environment they would publicly share any details that might give competitors an advantage. We are Monday-morning quarterbacks and don't know the injury status of the players.
 
#176 ·
Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

" How long would Boeing last if 5% of their planes dropped an engine mid-flight?"
Ergh, they'd last as long as they have lasted, actually. There's a long history of aircraft coming apart in flight, of losing engines in flight, of all sorts of scary engineering failures when aircraft are (were) new. Not just Boeing, but Lockheed and everyone else in the business. You may recall the new Boeing Dreamliner has had battery fires and an emergency beacon fire, none explained, but they're still flying. Boeing's 747's regularly caught fire and burned from center fuel tank spark problems, TWA800 was actually about the twelfth one to go that way, the first one documented in the air while just a month or so earlier, one went up in flames on the ground in Thailand as I recall.

Or the Airbus that lost it's tail and crashed out of JFK/NY in 2002(?).

But the point should be that engineering is always done to a spec. If you're building an unlimited budget America's Cup boat, you tell the engineer "we stop racing at 20 knots" and he'll build the boat strong enough to withstand maybe 25 knots. Above that point, it is EXPECTED to break. And since racing skippers usually push the boat until it breaks, regardless of the spec...Surely I'm not the only one who has heard "If you don't break anything, you're not racing" ?

Breaking a monohull in half though...Shades of the Edmund Fitzgerald.
 
#179 ·
Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

There is one transat being raced right now, an amateur one: Cap Town to Rio. It mixes racing boats with cruising boats and even if started only a few days ago had generated already more Madays and rescue operations than the two last professional racing circumnavigations put together.

All the boats that are in trouble and sent Maydays are cruising boats. There are already a death to regret.

Very small and light racing boats, a SF 3200 and a M34 are keeping up with the 40 to 60K winds and 20ft seas.

I have posted more on the interesting sailboat thread.
 
#180 ·
Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

There is one transat being raced right now, an amateur one: Cap Town to Rio. It mixes racing boats with cruising boats and even if started only a few days ago had generated already more Madays and rescue operations than the two last professional racing circumnavigations put together.

All the boats that are in trouble and sent Maydays are cruising boats. There are already a death to regret.

Very small and light racing boats, a SF 3200 and a M34 are keeping up with the 40 to 60K winds and 20ft seas.

I have posted more on the interesting sailboat thread.
[Sarcasm]

How could that possibly happen? That fleet would have been subject to a pre-race ISAF safety inspection, would it not?

[/Sarcasm]
 
#184 ·
Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

I guess you taught your kids to swim by tossing them in the deep end of the pool.
 
#189 ·
Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

Originally Posted by PCP
What better place do you want to push design & construction limits than the most dificult seas on the planet?
I guess you taught your kids to swim by tossing them in the deep end of the pool.
LOL!

Yeah,and those wankers at Audi probably should have developed their diesel technology by just running around traffic cones in a parking lot, rather than subjecting them to a test like the 24 Hours of Le Mans... :)

 
#186 · (Edited)
Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

Yes, everything to do with Blacks and Jews:rolleyes:.

Regarding motor racing comparison between Europe and the US I am entitled to have an opinion that is by no means only shared by Europeans. On this forum Americans wrote about that:

" I closely followed F1 for years. Was always amazed at the level of high tech involved. We still run carburetors in NASCAR, which is a big deal here. I think many here have no idea what F1 is or how huge it is in Europe and Asia, their loss. "

(F1) "Oh yeah! That's the stuff . . . and rallying . . . forget nascar unless you have insomnia"

These guys like cars and racing and that was posted on threads about racing. I do not mean that is a generalized opinion but that means that I am not alone in what regards my view of the American car racing scenario compared with the European one. And yes dragster racing is a typical American thing. Never said that it was the main body of American racing motorsport that is probably Nascar and oval racing in Indy cars, but sure, it is a type of "racing" that was born in America and that is practiced mainly in the US.

Relating this with racist opinions about Jews and Blacks is plain ridiculous :rolleyes:
 
#187 · (Edited)
Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

Drag racing is very popular in Australia. We even get Australian drag racing on US TV. But is does not appeal to either the Australian or US side of me.

I'm probably crazy but I love to see big yachts pushed to their limits in open ocean. Failures can teach us a lot about design. I think the danger involved is a healthy and acceptable part of the sport.

Can't learn much from watching Mom and Pop sail their old Rawson 30 around Lake Washington.
 
#188 ·
Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

Can't learn much from watching Mom and Pop sail their old Rawson 30 around Lake Washington.
FALSE!!!!!!

We get to see how boring sailing can be in a slug of a boat!

Altho I have to admit, there was one a few months back, like any boat well sailed, did pretty good in a race. Then again, being in the right wind at the right time is helpful too!

Marty
 
#190 ·
Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

PCP - I had to skip over 4 pages of back and forth, but you rational on how open 60's are stronger is flawed. You need to re-read what you typed and try and figure it out.

You don't need to input numbers, you're missing the forest through all the trees. If something has a safety factor of 8:1 as compared to 3:1, than the 8:1 will be stronger. Period.

Something tells me you've never had to spec out a critical piece of hardware or line.
 
#194 ·
Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

What were the "controlled conditions" that the Open boats were developed in?

I can't recall them ever being used in inshore racing but my memory ain't what it once was.
 
#195 ·
Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

What were the "controlled conditions" that the Open boats were developed in?

I can't recall them ever being used in inshore racing but my memory ain't what it once was.
Boats are designed up a purpose and to a given set of sea conditions: Lake boats are designed to be sailed on lakes, inshore boats are designed to be sailed on protected waters, offshore boats are designed to be sailed offshore, Open 60's are designed to be sailed on high latitudes and therefore they can only be truly tested in high latitudes.

What would be the purpose of testing an offshore boat on a lake, or an Open boat on moderated conditions? That would be no testing. A bit like testing a F1 at 120k/h:D.

You seem to think that today with all knowledge and computer simulation a designer has not a pretty good idea of the abilities and capabilities, including speed and seaworthiness/resistance of a boat he is designing. Well you are wrong, if it is a good designer with a long experience on a given type of boat he knows pretty well how the boat will perform and what the boat can take.

Regards

Paulo
 
#196 ·
Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

Jon, racing is more about generating enthusiasm and marketing, than about real world development. Case in point, when the Indy 500 really ran 500 miles before they started making cutbacks to "be green" ? The engines were specifically designed to run for only 700 miles. That's 100 for break-in and practice, 500 for the race, and 100 more "just in case". And then the engines were expected to violently cease operating at the 700 mile point.

Do you think that translated in any way into mass-market engines?

That's pretty much the way all racing development is. Running flat out for 24 hours means your engine can run for 24 hours...but for the mass market, you aim for 100,000 miles, or 200,000 miles, and you have to do things very differently. Sometimes you aim for a million miles.

Audi's race development? Uh, well, apparently their 2011-2013 2.0t turbo engines used a newly developed "laser polished" cylinder wall. Guess what happened? Massive oil consumption, engine failures, lots of engine replacements. Racing development? Maybe. Real world application? FAIL.

The Southern Ocean is a meatgrinder, and that's something you want in racing. Any fool can build a boat that can outlast the Southern Ocean. any fool can build a boat that goes fast. Finding the thin line where "it goes faster than anyone else and doesn't break" is much harder. Skipper, builder, designer, all have to be on the same page for that to work.

But breaking a hull in half...honest, has ANYONE ever heard of that kind of failure in a sailboat? Sounds more like one of those "aliens mutilated my cattle with lasers" tales.
 
#202 ·
Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

That sounds hard to do a recovery even with GPS. What is the depth water temps and weather trends He will encounter. What type of ship will be used ?
Remember I am kind of new so explain this for the layman.
Good Day, Lou
 
#209 ·
Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

The boat is already being towed. Probably already at port if everything went alright. I guess you did not follow the link I posted. On interesting sailboats Thread I posted a video with the French Navy marking the boat.
I have not looked the link for sometime. Amazing
Good Day. Lou
 
#204 ·
Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

" it's pretty difficult to simulate the conditions encountered between the Cape of Storms and Cape Horn in a "controlled" environment,"
Which in turn is why the conditions are simulated in a simulator or on a computer and not in some backyard test tank. Extensive computer modeling is where engineering starts theses day, and when you are talking about something like "How many impact load cycles of what magnitude can this frp layup take before the strands break?" that's donkey work. Easily done by the donkeys (the computers) and done very well for decades now by any number of engineering applications.

What, do you think NASA builds rockets based on "Well, let's see if this one breaks up when we launch it." ? No, they run the numbers to see whether the structure can sustain the loads. If a nautical architect was designing an open-water extreme-condition racing hull based on anything without running the numbers first--he'd be a fool. And that industry isn't big enough to support fools.

More likely that boat had a flaw, from damage of one kind or another, OR it was specifically designed for a limited stress, which at some point was exceeded. The design and engineering process is pretty much a routine, and a routine that is proven to work until someone, at some point in the chain, makes a mistake.

I'd be curious to know if we ever find out what happened there.

Like the Challenger disaster: There was nothing wrong with the design or engineering, but a whole crew died because someone forgot to say "Warning: Not for use below 50F !"
 
#205 ·
Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

Lou, a casual look only shows he sunk off the continental shelf in the Celtic Sea, and the depths there go past 5,000 meters. So depending on the exact location, no one may be interesting in spending the money to find it, much less to recover it.

Some online research might find you the GPS position where it was lost, which would give you the depth at that location, but then again the wreck would have angled away from there as it sank. So...you draw a bigger circle and then plan the expedition.
 
#212 · (Edited)
#213 ·
Re: Wow... Bernard Stamm's Open 60 "breaks in half" in the Western Approaches...

Incredible! So the hull did NOT sink and is in fact now recovered?
This is what I think is the mark of excellence the boat did not sink. This is a boats first job. A boat should always float. We are so smart and have such a wide array of material no boat should go to the bottom. The boat should be the life raft.
Good day, Lou
 
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