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  #41  
Old 01-19-2014
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Re: The Loss of The Alpha 42 "Be Good Too"

Quote:
Originally Posted by svHyLyte View Post
Based upon Charlie Doane's description of the event, the wave that damaged the yacht may have been a "rogue" in the sense that it was larger than the prevailing seas and came from a different direction but was evidently not that much greater. I suspect the problems arose more from the design of the hulls with the raked "wave piercing" bows. The hulls did exactly that. They pierced the wave rather than rising to it which would have driven the bows down and into the water, exacerbating the situation. A wave piercing bow on a motor yacht with 100 feet or more of foredeck to disburse the flood and shed water before it reaches a reinforced steel or aluminum superstructure is one thing. A cat, with only 20 feet or so before a wave strikes a nearly flat plat superstructure of GRP and Plexiglas is quite another matter. Poor design for ocean voyaging in my view.

FWIW...
I'm curious about this too. At what point do wave-piercing bows become a liability?

By Aero's description of how they behave (high buoyancy), I had in my head the opposite of what you describe above...that the bows rose very quickly, causing the boat to surf backward more quickly than a standard bow would.

But what you describe is equally conceivable.

Do you designers have any insight on how these bows would behave in a large wave strike? I saw the effectiveness of these bows on the AC boats in moderate chop (creating a very stable platform) - but what about the big stuff?
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  #42  
Old 01-19-2014
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Re: The Loss of The Alpha 42 "Be Good Too"

svHyLyte
You make a very good point and designers should take note. Completely ass-backwards to traditional vessel design with buoyancy decreasing with immersion, rather than increasing.
I hadn't given it any thought before you mentioned it, but now it seems obviously foolhardy for small sailing craft offshore designs.
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  #43  
Old 01-19-2014
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Re: The Loss of The Alpha 42 "Be Good Too"

Charlie Doane has produced another writeup - addressing us "baying dogs of the internet" (nice):

BE GOOD TOO: Answering Critics | Sailfeed

Quote:
1. The most substantive point that has been raised is that it was not wise of us to attempt a non-stop passage from New York to St. John in January in an untried prototype boat. This certainly bears discussing. Gunther and Doris had been waiting for the boat for some time and were eager to get south ASAP. I am sure they are now second-guessing their decision in retrospect...

As for Hank’s perspective, he’s a professional delivery skipper. Taking brand new lightly equipped boats into shitty weather is a big part of that job, at least if you really want to make a living at it. Some have suggested he should have tried to persuade Gunther and Doris to hop down the coast to the Bahamas instead, but in doing that he would effectively be talking them out of hiring him. I would guess that he now might be a bit more careful about accepting hull no. 1 prototype jobs.

As for me, I have some experience crewing off-season deliveries, including in brand new boats, and I knew what to expect. I knew we’d be in a gale or two and expected some things might break. I would never have done this trip with a skipper I didn’t know and trust. In retrospect I can certainly say I will be more careful in the future about doing off-season passages in prototype boats.
Isn't the bolded stuff what the "baying dogs" have been saying? Hmm....

Oh, and Jon, ANOTHER plus one for me on the SDR argument:

Quote:
In the winter, at least, you won’t have some squirrely tropical system doing something entirely unexpected (like Mitch in 1998).

There is an argument to be made that experienced sailors taking a boat south in winter are behaving more responsibly than inexperienced sailors who try to go south in the fall without professional help.
I'm so right. And...

Quote:
It may surprise Jon to learn this, but it is possible to sail long distances without any engines or electrical power. Some people even go out in boats that don’t have engines or electrical systems in the first place.
...you just got spanked! Heh-heh.
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Last edited by smackdaddy; 01-19-2014 at 05:59 PM.
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  #44  
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Re: The Loss of The Alpha 42 "Be Good Too"

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post

Oh, and Jon, ANOTHER plus one for me on the SDR argument:

Quote:
In the winter, at least, you won’t have some squirrely tropical system doing something entirely unexpected (like Mitch in 1998).

There is an argument to be made that experienced sailors taking a boat south in winter are behaving more responsibly than inexperienced sailors who try to go south in the fall without professional help.
I'm so right.
You know, such an argument MIGHT have some merit, if you or Charlie could show any significant CORRELATION between the difficulties encountered by the boats abandoned or forced to withdraw from the SDR, and the experience - or supposed lack thereof - of their crews...

Unfortunately for you, there's not much of a correlation:

ZULU - The Alden 54 that suffered the loss of her rudder... Her owner is a member of the New York, Bristol, and Great Harbor Yacht Clubs. She had previously completed the brutal 2011 NARC rally, with no issues... Verdict: "Inexperience" not likely to be a significant issue...

JAMMIN' - the Catalina 42 that also lost her rudder... These folks have been full-time cruisers since 2007, starting from the West Coast... They had made the trip back and forth to the Islands a couple of times before...
Verdict: "Lack of experience" not bloody likely to have been an issue...

LIKE DOLPHINS - a Catana 47 that was dismasted... Her owners are from freakin' BELGIUM, so they have at least one Transatlantic crossing under their belts...
Verdict: I doubt their dismasting was due to a lack of experience...

NYAPA - the Hans Christian 38 also dismasted... This year was to be their 3rd time out cruising for an extended period, their first time out was 25 years ago after they were first married... 2nd cruise was a 5 year affair with their 3 daughters, starting on the West coast, thru the Canal and most of the Caribbean, and ending at home in New England, where they worked to replenish the cruising kitty, and refit for another extended cruise...
Verdict: "Lack of experience"??? Seriously???

WINGS - the C-38 abandoned after being 'disabled'... Another full-time cruising couple, their home port was Duluth, MN - you know, on that puny bathtub called Lake freakin' SUPERIOR ? They had already made it down to the Bahamas, spent at least a year without ever coming alongside a dock, then had returned to the Chesapeake, where they planned to sail with the SDR...
Verdict: Information on this couple is the hardest to obtain, but I it certainly does not appear they would fit anyone's reasonable definition of "Inexperienced"...

BRAVEHEART - the Tartan 4600 that diverted to Beaufort after a crewmember suffered a broken arm...Her owners were veterans of previous Caribbean 1500s, as long ago as 2006...
Verdict: "Inexperienced"? Yeah, OK, if you say so...

So, keep beating that drum of yours that the problems in this year's SDR fleet were due to "Inexperience", the SDR's "Low Bar to Entry", or the lack of an ISAF Safety Inspection - 'cause I doubt I'm the only one here who finds your persistent bleating on this issue highly amusing... :-)

Last edited by JonEisberg; 01-19-2014 at 07:52 PM.
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Old 01-19-2014
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Re: The Loss of The Alpha 42 "Be Good Too"

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
You know, such an argument MIGHT have some merit, if you or Charlie could show any significant CORRELATION between the difficulties encountered by the boats abandoned or forced to withdraw from the SDR, and the experience - or supposed lack thereof - of their crews...

Unfortunately for you, there's not much of a correlation:

ZULU - The Alden 54 that suffered the loss of her rudder... Her owner is a member of the New York, Bristol, and Great Harbor Yacht Clubs. She had previously completed the brutal 2011 NARC rally, with no issues... Verdict: "Inexperience" not likely to be a significant issue...

JAMMIN' - the Catalina 42 that also lost her rudder... These folks have been full-time cruisers since 2007, starting from the West Coast... They had made the trip back and forth to the Islands a couple of times before...
Verdict: "Lack of experience" not bloody likely to have been an issue...

LIKE DOLPHINS - a Catana 47 that was dismasted... Her owners are from freakin' BELGIUM, so they have at least one Transatlantic crossing under their belts...
Verdict: I doubt their dismasting was due to a lack of experience...

NYAPA - the Hans Christian 38 also dismasted... This year was to be their 3rd time out cruising for an extended period, their first time out was 25 years ago after they were first married... 2nd cruise was a 5 year affair with their 3 daughters, starting on the West coast, thru the Canal and most of the Caribbean, and ending at home in New England, where they worked to replenish the cruising kitty, and refit for another extended cruise...
Verdict: "Lack of experience"??? Seriously???

WINGS - the C-38 abandoned after losing her rudder... Another full-time cruising couple, their home port was Duluth, MN - you know, on Lake freakin' SUPERIOR ? They had already made it down to the Bahamas, spent at least a year without ever coming alongside a dock, then had returned to the Chesapeake, where they planned to sail with the SDR...
Verdict: Information on this couple is the hardest to obtain, but I it certainly does not appear they would fit anyone's reasonable definition of "Inexperienced"...

BRAVEHEART - the Tartan 4600 that diverted to Beaufort after a crewmember suffered a broken arm...Her owners were veterans of previous Caribbean 1500s, as long ago as 2006...
Verdict: "Inexperienced"? Yeah, OK, if you say so...

So, keep beating that drum of yours that the problems in this year's SDR fleet were due to "Inexperience", the SDR's "Low Bar to Entry", or the lack of an ISAF Safety Inspection - 'cause I doubt I'm the only one here who finds your persistent bleating on this issue highly amusing... :-)
Very interesting post. So many lost rudders at one time. Different builders, different ages; what is the common thread? Did they all deploy sea anchors?
A mystery for you "who done it" fans, to be sure.
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Re: The Loss of The Alpha 42 "Be Good Too"

Quote:
Originally Posted by capta View Post
Very interesting post. So many lost rudders at one time. Different builders, different ages; what is the common thread? Did they all deploy sea anchors?
A mystery for you "who done it" fans, to be sure.
Sorry, the post you quoted contained one error, which I've corrected...

The information on the abandonment of WINGS is very sketchy, they only say she was 'disabled', not necessarily a loss of steering, to the best of my knowledge... The decision to abandon sounds like it was taken in the face of a forecast of worsening weather, and the owner's blog offers no further clarification of what exactly went wrong...
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Re: The Loss of The Alpha 42 "Be Good Too"

USCG Marine Alert

http://wow.uscgaux.info/Uploads_wowI...1_and_2_14.pdf
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  #48  
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Re: The Loss of The Alpha 42 "Be Good Too"

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
So, keep beating that drum of yours that the problems in this year's SDR fleet were due to "Inexperience", the SDR's "Low Bar to Entry", or the lack of an ISAF Safety Inspection - 'cause I doubt I'm the only one here who finds your persistent bleating on this issue highly amusing... :-)
Jon, baby, as always, and as forever will be, I really don't deed to make any correlation other than this:

The SDR was the ONLY rally to have FIVE (6 if you count the other call) SAR cases in a single stretch. They own that record.

They also own the issues of the "Inexperience", the "Low Bar to Entry", and the lack of an ISAF Safety Inspection.

There is simple math to be done, my friend. (Or, alternatively, gymnastics of trying to prove something otherwise. I'm just not good at gymnastics. The tight pants chafe my manbits.)

But we digress....

What are your thoughts on the wave-piercing bows?
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  #49  
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Re: The Loss of The Alpha 42 "Be Good Too"

Quote:
Originally Posted by sailvayu View Post
Very good stuff. Thanks for the link sailv.

Quote:
Offshore Sailing
You must be prepared.

In a recent offshore regatta, numerous sailboats experienced steering system and other failures which required assistance and/or rescue by the U. S. Coast Guard when a weather system stalled offshore creating higher than expected sea states and winds. The Coast Guard responded using an array of assets to render assistance.

Offshore sailing requires special knowledge, skills, and abilities. Vessel equipment and components must be thoroughly checked before getting underway and periodically while at sea. The offshore domain’s remoteness adds a negative dynamic to survivability concerns. Preparation is key to minimizing misfortune.

The Coast Guard strongly recommends that owner / operators of offshore sailboats ensure proper maintenance and repair of their critical mechanical systems to reduce the possibility of failure during stressed operating conditions.
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Re: The Loss of The Alpha 42 "Be Good Too"

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
Jon, baby, as always, and as forever will be, I really don't deed to make any correlation other than this:

The SDR was the ONLY rally to have FIVE (6 if you count the other call) SAR cases in a single stretch. They own that record.
Yeah, keep ignoring the fact that the PERCENTAGE of boats lost in the 2011 NARC Rally was considerably higher... Sorry, but you're better at gymnastics, than math... :-)

Then, there's the matter of the recent fatalities in both the 1500 and NARC within the past 3 years... They own that record.

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
They also own the issues of the "Inexperience", the "Low Bar to Entry", and the lack of an ISAF Safety Inspection.
So, despite your inability to offer ANY EVIDENCE WHATSOEVER that any of these incidents can be attributed to "Inexperience" (the examples I've cited indicate quite the opposite, as a matter of fact), you continue to insist that issue is somehow unique to the SDR...

The stated "Bar to Entry" is no lower for the SDR, than for the 1500... Completion of a "Bluewater Passage" for the former, a "Passage of at least 250 miles" for the latter. If anything, the bar seems set lower for the 1500, to me... Unless you can offer evidence that the organizers of the SDR admitted applicants who did not meet those stated qualifications, you really should cease making this assertion... And, as I've alluded to before, Hank shared an anecdote in an email which casts a wholly different light on how 'strict' the 1500 has been in the past, when it came to acceptance of an entry... Dave/Auspicious was copied the same email, he could confirm...

Also, the NARC does not conduct a 'Safety Inspection', either... But, the SDR "owns" that issue, as well, right? Again, despite your inability to offer ANY EVIDENCE WHATSOEVER that any of the SAR incidents in the SDR were attributable IN ANY WAY to the lack of said inspections, you continue to believe what you want to believe...

Or, are we to suppose that all those OTHER crews far less experienced than the boats I've cited above - who successfully completed their passages - are the ones that are supposed to be indicative of the problems that the SDR has with "Inexperienced" participants in their rally?

Seriously, as one wag commented over on SA, you need to get a bigger shovel... :-)

[/QUOTE]

Last edited by JonEisberg; 01-19-2014 at 10:05 PM.
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