Ocean baby rescue underway off Mexico - Page 32 - SailNet Community
 546Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
post #311 of 620 Old 05-12-2014
arrgh!
 
titustiger27's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 987
Thanks: 87
Thanked 50 Times in 49 Posts
Rep Power: 3
 
Dock
Re: Ocean baby rescue underway off Mexico

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kostis View Post
I dont know guys. I think people are really sheep with emotions, that they just act like a mass. They way they crucified this family.... I am not saying they did right. Or wrong. At the end of the day what happened was they lost their boat, and the coast guard and army did their duty and the emergency EPRIB proved to be working safety device!!

Tell me something. Arent u proud that u live in a country that they will go thousands of miles to save a family? If this is not a success i dont know what is. Those are the true values of country that offer protection to their citizens. We should be celebrating now

If you look at the press conference from the rescuers they basically say: 'this is our job.'

They don't say it directly, but the cost of the rescue has already been paid.... If you have a coast guard and their job (in part) is to rescue people [also this is not the furthest they have gone].

Not everyone benefits equally from our taxes, but this is as good a use as any.
Kostis likes this.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Vector X Y
titustiger27 is offline  
Quote Quick Reply Share with Facebook
The Following User Says Thank You to titustiger27 For This Useful Post:
oysterman23 (05-16-2014)
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #312 of 620 Old 05-12-2014
Senior Member
 
Kostis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Great state of SC
Posts: 133
Thanks: 9
Thanked 8 Times in 5 Posts
Rep Power: 2
 
Re: Ocean baby rescue underway off Mexico

Quote:
Originally Posted by titustiger27 View Post
Not everyone benefits equally from our taxes, but this is as good a use as any.
Well said brother. Amen
Kostis is offline  
Quote Quick Reply Share with Facebook
post #313 of 620 Old 05-12-2014
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 4,711
Thanks: 1
Thanked 195 Times in 162 Posts
Rep Power: 5
 
Re: Ocean baby rescue underway off Mexico

Quote:
Originally Posted by outbound View Post
Posted our preventer system in past. Taught to me by a very experienced passage maker.
One set up each side.
first line attached to strong point at END of boom. When not in use cleated to boom near gooseneck. That line ends in snap shackle.
second line starts in cockpit. goes forward thro a clutch just lateral to cockpit. then to extreme bow of boat. from there thro a block and back. It ends in snap shackle as well. when not deployed snapped to toe rail lateral to boom.
To deploy- ease lines- attach snap shackles to each other.
If emergent can release by throwing clutch off. when trimming can use lazy side primary to tighten.
If system fails boom will fail in middle ( not likely) with out injury to crew.

I also use the forward part of second line as the foreguys for DDW sails and the aft part of second line as the sheets. I fly a parasailor with no main so this is non issue. Others may use these lines as fore and after guys. Have the Wichard blocks you can attach where ever on the perforated toe rail. System is complicated to explain but easy to use
Yup, preventers from the end of the boom taken forward are definitely the way to go... Mid-boom preventers/vangs taken to the deck amidships increase the loads upon the gear to a great degree, and are a perfect recipe for breaking possibly the boom, deck gear, or both...

For a low aspect main with a long boom more likely to get dipped in sporty conditions DDW, a more elastic climbing rope can work well...
JonEisberg is offline  
Quote Quick Reply Share with Facebook
post #314 of 620 Old 05-13-2014
Picnic Sailor
 
chall03's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Sydney
Posts: 1,788
Thanks: 24
Thanked 27 Times in 23 Posts
Rep Power: 13
 
Re: Ocean baby rescue underway off Mexico

Quote:
Originally Posted by titustiger27 View Post
Would there be the same concern if the family practiced religion that doesn't believe in using doctors?

Or what if the family was living in one of the various remote parts of the country -- say Alaska ?

Edit: and if we find it reprehensible to take a family out to sea... is it just as reprehensible to have children in poverty?
I share some of your frustration and continue to have mixed feelings about this thread and in general the attention and criticism that Rebel Heart is receiving.

We as parents all do what we believe is the best thing by our kids and for our kids. Every decision we make involves assessing risk and carries the underlying concern of whether we are doing right by them.

I will not be passing judgement on how anyone chooses to parent, either land based or seafaring.

I do however take the advice of Yorksailor, Outbound and others suitably qualified to have an opinion seriously and thank them for it. Yet I wonder if it is in fact their experience in this area that might cloud objective judgement?

I note that access to paediatric emergency medicine is a far smaller issue here is Australia (where large areas of our country do live remote from high level health care) than say childhood obesity.

To simplify such a discussion as this down to going offshore with kids is inherently dangerous while staying on land with them is 'safe' is a mistake.
MarkofSeaLife and TomMaine like this.

'Life is either a daring adventure or nothing' - Helen Keller



To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
chall03 is offline  
Quote Quick Reply Share with Facebook
post #315 of 620 Old 05-13-2014
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 89
Thanks: 33
Thanked 4 Times in 3 Posts
Rep Power: 8
 
Re: Ocean baby rescue underway off Mexico

If you go offshore, much less across an ocean, relying totally on an electric bilge pump, you are woefully unprepared.

No matter what the cause when the SHTF, the batteries or electrical system is almost always the first casualty.

I have a Whale Gusher that will pump 70 gallons in a few minutes mounted such that it can be pumped while steering the boat.

This whole story is about a total lack of preparation, rather than "bad luck".

Leaving on a long passage with sick passengers, especially your own children -- not bad luck.

Not having tested the boat and crew in heavy weather -- not bad luck.

Not having tried and tested a proper preventer and the hardware and attachment points on the boat -- not bad luck.

Not having enough crew to hand steer the boat when automatic systems just won't do or if they fail -- not bad luck.

Not having the ability to pump a mere 70 gallons of water per day manually and easily -- not bad luck.

Not having the ability to temporarily slow a leak of that type -- not bad luck.


Why am I being such an a$$? Several reasons. To start, if they had hit a real Pacific storm, with that level of preparation, they might have been lost, including their innocent children. The sea may not have granted them time for such a rescue.

Secondly, stories like these open the door for the kind of thinking that goes; ocean sailing is so dangerous and rescues cost the taxpayer so much, we should restrict people from doing it without "fill in the blank with a thousand bureaucratic requirements".

As far as this analysis being mean to the poor Kaufman's, they have already collected more than the uninsured boat was worth in donations, and their children are safe and sound. So, all in all it appears that others have fully paid the monetary costs of their poor preparation.

'
lowtide is offline  
Quote Quick Reply Share with Facebook
post #316 of 620 Old 05-13-2014
Senior Member
 
caberg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 621
Thanks: 0
Thanked 17 Times in 16 Posts
Rep Power: 4
 
Re: Ocean baby rescue underway off Mexico

Quote:
Originally Posted by chall03 View Post
To simplify such a discussion as this down to going offshore with kids is inherently dangerous while staying on land with them is 'safe' is a mistake.
I think that's an entirely fair observation. I do not have a problem with parents taking their kids on offshore passages, but I'll make two points that have stuck with me since the beginning of this saga.

1. I have a 4 year old boy, and I cannot imagine confining him to a sailboat for weeks at any point in his life up to now. Since he started crawling at around 8 months, and walking soon thereafter, he is constantly on the move. Add the movement of a sailboat offshore, where even moving around the tiny space of the sailboat becomes difficult, and it starts to seem cruel to subject my kid to that for weeks at a time. Even now, we rarely spend an entire day on our boat, but find a place to anchor where we can swim, go ashore, go fishing, because it is damn boring for a kid that age to sit in a sailboat all day long.

2. I am not convinced that the Kaufman's had the best of intentions with this voyage. From what I have read, they seem like attention who*** who are more concerned with creating some sort of reality television life for themselves so they can write about it and publish. Note how their blog is filled with lots of juicy stuff that you don't ordinarily find on a sailing blog, from their sexual encounters to Charlotte being molested as a child. It's not surprising that a book is already in the works according to Eric, and had been planned had they made it to the S. Pacific. I have far more respect for the family who silently goes and voyages.... maybe someday writing and reflecting about the sailing and adventure sans drama.
caberg is offline  
Quote Quick Reply Share with Facebook
post #317 of 620 Old 05-13-2014
Senior Member
 
Coquina's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Maryland
Posts: 448
Thanks: 4
Thanked 7 Times in 7 Posts
Rep Power: 3
 
Re: Ocean baby rescue underway off Mexico

Bilge pumps - I can *easily* clear 70 gallons a day with my hand pump. If *that* was their distress then they were very lucky to not encounter real weather or a real leak.

Joe Della Barba
Coquina
C&C 35 MK I

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Coquina is offline  
Quote Quick Reply Share with Facebook
The Following User Says Thank You to Coquina For This Useful Post:
lowtide (05-13-2014)
post #318 of 620 Old 05-13-2014
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 4,711
Thanks: 1
Thanked 195 Times in 162 Posts
Rep Power: 5
 
Re: Ocean baby rescue underway off Mexico

Quote:
Originally Posted by lowtide View Post
If you go offshore, much less across an ocean, relying totally on an electric bilge pump, you are woefully unprepared.

No matter what the cause when the SHTF, the batteries or electrical system is almost always the first casualty.

I have a Whale Gusher that will pump 70 gallons in a few minutes mounted such that it can be pumped while steering the boat.

This whole story is about a total lack of preparation, rather than "bad luck".

Leaving on a long passage with sick passengers, especially your own children -- not bad luck.

Not having tested the boat and crew in heavy weather -- not bad luck.

Not having tried and tested a proper preventer and the hardware and attachment points on the boat -- not bad luck.

Not having enough crew to hand steer the boat when automatic systems just won't do or if they fail -- not bad luck.

Not having the ability to pump a mere 70 gallons of water per day manually and easily -- not bad luck.

Not having the ability to temporarily slow a leak of that type -- not bad luck.


Why am I being such an a$$? Several reasons. To start, if they had hit a real Pacific storm, with that level of preparation, they might have been lost, including their innocent children. The sea may not have granted them time for such a rescue.

Secondly, stories like these open the door for the kind of thinking that goes; ocean sailing is so dangerous and rescues cost the taxpayer so much, we should restrict people from doing it without "fill in the blank with a thousand bureaucratic requirements".

As far as this analysis being mean to the poor Kaufman's, they have already collected more than the uninsured boat was worth in donations, and their children are safe and sound. So, all in all it appears that others have fully paid the monetary costs of their poor preparation.

'
I believe some of your observations might be in error... I'm pretty sure I heard it stated in the interview, or over on CF, that they did have a high-capacity manual pump aboard... Which would supposedly evacuate "one gallon per stroke", like the large Edson, or similar...

And, according to the Kaufmanns, Lyra had been given "a clean bill of health" by a doctor in Mexico, prior to their departure... Which, they had actually delayed until they were reasonably confident she was over her infection, if memory serves...

Also, precious few Mom & Pop cruisers out there are making passages with what many might consider "enough crew" aboard to hand steer, should it be required due to the conditions, or if the self-steering might go tits up... How capable Charlotte might have been at the helm in heavier conditions, however, might reasonably be called into question, given her lack of offshore/overnight experience... So, you might have a point, that perhaps they might not have had sufficient crew, especially given the amount of care and attention the two young children aboard would have demanded...

I'd be interesting in learning whether the boat was under the control of the Hydrovane, or the autopilot, when she suffered the damaging broach... Based upon my one experience with a Hydrovane on a 43-footer, I was 'underwhelmed' by its performance, to say the least... And that's putting it politely... :-) It came nowhere close to steering as well as any of the servo-pendulum vanes I've used, and I wouldn't trust it sailing DDW, or in a situation when an accidental jibe might occur...


MedSailor and christian.hess like this.

Last edited by JonEisberg; 05-13-2014 at 09:59 AM.
JonEisberg is offline  
Quote Quick Reply Share with Facebook
post #319 of 620 Old 05-13-2014
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 89
Thanks: 33
Thanked 4 Times in 3 Posts
Rep Power: 8
 
Re: Ocean baby rescue underway off Mexico

70 gallons is a 5 gallon bucket every hour and forty three minutes, or a single gallon every twenty minutes.

Also unless you can count and measure while pumping, water in the boat is almost always overestimated. We used to have a swing keel lake boat that had almost no bilge. We came in early once because we thought there was too much water in the boat, to find it was about 2 gallons in reality.

20 pumps on the Whale Gusher is a gallon, so if it comes to it I can know exactly what I'm taking on, whether it is getting better or worse, realistically estimate whether and how long I can keep up, etc..

Less than 40 strokes per hour would keep her dry at 70 gallons.

The Scared Man With a Bucket brand bilge pump could handle it without fatigue. Shouldn't have been a factor in abandoning ship.

'
lowtide is offline  
Quote Quick Reply Share with Facebook
post #320 of 620 Old 05-13-2014
Senior Member
 
Coquina's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Maryland
Posts: 448
Thanks: 4
Thanked 7 Times in 7 Posts
Rep Power: 3
 
Re: Ocean baby rescue underway off Mexico

All kids are different, but my son has had no issues on the boat since infancy other than normal kid stuff getting into things. As a baby it was easy - we strapped the car seat where we wanted it and it stayed put
When he got older he LOVED the motion and we would have him in the double berth with the lee cloth up. He had his toys in there and would be rolling back and forth laughing.

One thing though not always realized is that the skipper is now a single hander essentially. In any "stuff" hits the fan situation it was me-boat and wife-child. I was used to singlehanding, but if you aren't you need to realize child care is a full time job for someone.

Quote:
Originally Posted by caberg View Post
1. I have a 4 year old boy, and I cannot imagine confining him to a sailboat for weeks at any point in his life up to now. Since he started crawling at around 8 months, and walking soon thereafter, he is constantly on the move. Add the movement of a sailboat offshore, where even moving around the tiny space of the sailboat becomes difficult, and it starts to seem cruel to subject my kid to that for weeks at a time. Even now, we rarely spend an entire day on our boat, but find a place to anchor where we can swim, go ashore, go fishing, because it is damn boring for a kid that age to sit in a sailboat all day long.

Joe Della Barba
Coquina
C&C 35 MK I

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Coquina is offline  
Quote Quick Reply Share with Facebook
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

By choosing to post the reply above you agree to the rules you agreed to when joining Sailnet.
Click Here to view those rules.

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the SailNet Community forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
Please note: After entering 3 characters a list of Usernames already in use will appear and the list will disappear once a valid Username is entered.


User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in









Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
National Guard helicopter rescue called off as health of baby aboard sailboat ... - S NewsReader News Feeds 0 04-05-2014 01:50 AM
Bay Area rescue team working to save sick baby on sailboat - KGO-TV NewsReader News Feeds 0 04-05-2014 01:50 AM
Coast Guard effort underway to rescue disabled sailboat - Port City Daily NewsReader News Feeds 0 01-04-2014 02:30 PM
JFRD: Rescue underway off Mayport coast for group onboard capsized sailboat - ActionN NewsReader News Feeds 0 11-04-2013 04:50 PM
Sacramento Sailor OK After Rescue off Mexico - ABC News NewsReader News Feeds 0 06-20-2012 02:30 PM

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome