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  #411  
Old 05-27-2014
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Re: Ocean baby rescue underway off Mexico

Quote:
Originally Posted by christian.hess View Post
YES I agree completely...what Im trying and FAILING to point out is simply those rough offshore conditions cant be duplicated near shore...where they were at and leaving from..and you cant prepare no matter what...because they are not the same....

going through the paces is different than experiencing tropical deprression or typhoons mid ocean...so how can one say you must do that first then go offhshore?

only thing I can think if is they should of crewed on other peoples boats more, offhsore...together maybe before heading out into the deep blue sea

other than that it just wont happen

I also pointed out before that most cruisers in mexico and central america simply will never experience any sort of out there rough tests to boat and crew...in fact most guys get a little whooped in panama and say wtf?
I understand what you are saying about gaining experience prior to departing across an ocean. I completely agree with you on that. I also think that gaining experience is not the same as a shakedown of the boat. Not according to any definition I've seen for shakedown. I've agreed before this thread ever started that gaining experience by actually experiencing it is the only way to truly understand those kinds of conditions and gaining that experience on your own boat is even better.

I think the sick child was the tipping point for them. Everything else, well, some temporary repairs and they could most likely have made landfall. Had they waved off the rescue, continued on and posted about their temporary repairs and ingenuity, most of you would be patting them on the back. A few I'm sure would still find something to slam them for...
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  #412  
Old 05-27-2014
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Re: Ocean baby rescue underway off Mexico

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Originally Posted by aeventyr60 View Post
A bottle of bubbly wasn't my criticism. It was in agreement with cabergs comments on the stuff that keeps falling out of the RH mouths...
I shouldnt of quoted you but the one before that...jajaja

sorry
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  #413  
Old 05-27-2014
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Re: Ocean baby rescue underway off Mexico

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Originally Posted by Dean101 View Post
I understand what you are saying about gaining experience prior to departing across an ocean. I completely agree with you on that. I also think that gaining experience is not the same as a shakedown of the boat. Not according to any definition I've seen for shakedown. I've agreed before this thread ever started that gaining experience by actually experiencing it is the only way to truly understand those kinds of conditions and gaining that experience on your own boat is even better.

I think the sick child was the tipping point for them. Everything else, well, some temporary repairs and they could most likely have made landfall. Had they waved off the rescue, continued on and posted about their temporary repairs and ingenuity, most of you would be patting them on the back. A few I'm sure would still find something to slam them for...

yup!

its the non stop slamming that irks me...people do it all the time think they know it all, have experienced it all and since they have experience they think that by prepping and avoiding doing "stupid" stuff they are inmune to these sort of things

all it takes is a couple of bad decisions or equipment failure and it could be game over

just a little more respect and understanding from the it crowd would go a long ways in letting this thread die in peace
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  #414  
Old 05-27-2014
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Re: Ocean baby rescue underway off Mexico

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Originally Posted by Dean101 View Post
My point is this: A shakedown cruise by definition tests the ship and its various systems for problems and deficiencies. How did they get to Mexico? How long had they been coastal cruising? How much work on that boat did Eric do himself? I think much of the stuff being said here is based on what can be read in a blog. A blog! Since they did not blog about a shakedown does that mean they didn't do one?
But of course, they DID blog about it...

Rebel Heart - Charlotte's Blog

What is truly stunning about what she considers to have been their first Shakedown/First year of cruising, is that it make no mention or reference whatsoever to much of anything actually related to SAILING... :-)

However, she did learn this:

Quote:
Cruising with babies sucks.

When they are really little you can just lay them down and sandwich them between blankets like a hot dog, but once they start wanting to sit and crawl, and the boat is bumping and you feel drowsy from Bonine or a little bit seasick and you are just holding a baby in your arms or in a baby carrier or they are stuck in a seat or in a berth while you are underway, or dealing with their older sibling, or trying to pee, or trying to cook, or trying to do ANYTHING…..yes, it’s a run on sentence, but FOR ME, I have not enjoyed sailing with little kids. I think 3 years old and up may be the magic number for leaving to go cruising with kids.
In 7 years of living aboard in San Diego, they made ONE trip out to Catalina, living on a mooring in Two Harbors for almost 2 months, which they initially considered to have been their "Shakedown Cruise"...



I'm still mystified how Eric got the sea time for a 100 ton Master's ticket, he must have done a hell of a lot of sailing on OPBs... :-)

Last edited by JonEisberg; 05-27-2014 at 11:15 PM.
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  #415  
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Re: Ocean baby rescue underway off Mexico

you only need a couple of captains and or yourself to provide hours...

when I got mine thats what I showed...getting a masters ticket(now in retrospect) is a joke

most people lie about their hours anyway

past the test and bingo

ps. I did mine in a "world renowned" ft lauderdale based school...there was not one physical or on the water test, there was not one hands on teaching part, nothing...anyone could do it...provided you had some sort of familiarity with boats

I was doing some reading a few days back and found the funniest add in a searching for crew list

it said "uscg captains license...new to sailng willing to learn and crew or CAPTAIN anywhere in the caribbean or pacific etc..."

and I laughed cause it made sense...if your good with books you can hop in, lie about your hours, take a test, and be a "captain" and be a complete newb at the same time! jajaja
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Last edited by christian.hess; 05-27-2014 at 11:06 PM.
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  #416  
Old 05-27-2014
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Re: Ocean baby rescue underway off Mexico

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Originally Posted by Dean101 View Post
Again, maybe he practiced heaving to or deploying a drogue and just didn't write about it. I'm willing to give the guy a benefit of a doubt.

And can somebody tell me how you can spend that much time on a boat with a wife and 2 kids and NOT know the missus ain't happy? Yes, I think they made mistakes. Their choice of blog subjects may be a little.... unconventional but that has nothing to do with what happened. And after all, they did have quite a bit of time to pack what was precious to them before they scuttled. It's not as if they had to swim out on her way down.
Ten thousand miles of light conditions will tell you nothing about how the boat will do in heavy weather. Aerodynamic forces are not linear functions, but exponential. 40 is not 4 times as much as 10, it is 16 times the force.

Living aboard and passage making are apples and oranges. Living aboard at a dock, and passage making are almost opposites. At the dock, the world is infinite, the finger pier instantly leads to land and the whole world. The world is pretty still most of the time, and things stay where you put them. The ports and hatches are open most of the time. You can leave whenever you want.

Passage making is a whole different psychology. The finite nature of the boat is absolute. The idea that one cannot get off the boat is more than some can easily cope with. When things start to go wrong, it really weighs. The world is moving, sometimes in unpredictable and violent motions, and everything is a potential projectile. The hatches are closed, only vents and dorades provide any air. In this case, at least some sea water (and it's smells) were getting aboard, making things damp or wet. Dirty diapers were washed in the galley sink, and with little ventilation that had to be a nightmare. None of this is even approximated with coastal cruising, especially the feeling of being trapped in the situation.

I call it the "get me off of this #@%$^&*&^^&**&^^&#@#@@ BOAT NOW" stage. It is also a matter of helplessness. Crew who are not experienced feel like they are at the mercy of the boat, the weather, the skipper, and everything else. They have no control over anything, and when things go bad, everything intensifies again. So you feel helpless and trapped, the pea in a paint can, and it is going to last for at least a few more weeks.

The only control you can assert is to insist on the skipper pressing the panic button, when you are at that stage.

If someone reaches "get me off" stage near shore, they can be calmed by the knowledge that it won't last long. The psychological effects of the isolation of passagemaking are not to be underestimated, and are best eased into.

'
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  #417  
Old 05-28-2014
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Re: Ocean baby rescue underway off Mexico

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dean101 View Post
. How did they get to Mexico? How long had they been coastal cruising? How much work on that boat did Eric do himself? I think much of the stuff being said here is based on what can be read in a blog. .
According to the blog, up until mid last yeat when the Hydrovane was installed.....

Quote:
Right now we have our little X5 wheel pilot which has faithfully steered Rebel Heart for a maybe three or four thousand miles...


There were additional passages to sort out the hydrovane after this I believe. And this note from Eric on CF...

Quote:
Originally Posted by rebel heart View Post
There are plenty of things not written on my blog. It is not, nor have I presented it, as a comprehensive and balanced view of everything about our boat and our life. I picked topics I wanted to put on there; others weren't, so looking at it like you'll find an even-steven accounting of affairs is a fool's errand.
Now I am not saying 4000nm makes one 'experienced' but unless I am missing something( And I might be) I can't fathom how they can be as inexperienced as guys like Jon believe them to be.

However in our first casual 2000nm coastal cruising doing mainly day sails with some overnights(with bub on board) we were caught in several sqaulls and storms, seeing 40+ kts once, and over 25 on several occasions. I recall one day of beating into 25+ and bad seas for 12 hours which was enough to give us the impression that a week of that kinda of thing would be terribly unpleasant. We learn't plenty about our boat, sea sickness, watch keeping and that yeah there are big waves out there sometimes.

Clearly after 2000nm we didn't know everything and we certainly would of found crossing an ocean intimidating at that point, but we had an idea.

I like Dean I guess can't make sense of how they could of been 'cruising' for years and not had gained some of that experience.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
However, she did learn this:

"I have not enjoyed sailing with little kids. I think 3 years old and up may be the magic number for leaving to go cruising with kids."
FWIW despite having times when she might of said the above on a particular bad day, my wife is of the complete opposite opinion based on the several thousand miles of Coastal Cruising we did when our daughter was a baby. Now she is three sailing is a lot more work If it wasn't fun, if it was all stress we wouldn't of kept doing it.
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Last edited by chall03; 05-28-2014 at 03:11 AM.
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  #418  
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Re: Ocean baby rescue underway off Mexico

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Originally Posted by chall03 View Post
FWIW despite having times when she might of said the above on a particular bad day, my wife is of the complete opposite opinion based on the several thousand miles of Coastal Cruising we did when our daughter was a baby. Now she is three sailing is a lot more work If it wasn't fun, if it was all stress we wouldn't of kept doing it.
You're putting up a great fight, Chall. But I think the war is won.

Blogs are like Facebook pages, a good moment here, a bad moment there. They prove, people are weird.

I'm with your wife, babies and kids are hard to sail with! Then they are not,...then they are,...

It's hard to explain, unless you've done it. There's my 'blog' on the subject.
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  #419  
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Re: Ocean baby rescue underway off Mexico

Quote:
Now I am not saying 4000nm makes one 'experienced' but unless I am missing something( And I might be) I can't fathom how they can be as inexperienced as guys like Jon believe them to be.
I can only relate this to my own experience. When I started I did cruises and some cruise/delivery type sailing and had by then a few thousand miles under my belt. I knew I still had a lot to learn but was somewhat confident in my abilities. Then I started to race and boy I tell you that was a slap in the face. Though I learned many skills from my previous cruising I really can't articulate how much more I have learned from racing. Though I consider myself a cruiser, I shudder at how naive I was prior to doing extensive racing. I guess what I am saying is that you really don't know how inexperienced you were until you have gained that experience. RH had the confidence to make the decision to cross an ocean but lacked the experience to make it across.
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Re: Ocean baby rescue underway off Mexico

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Originally Posted by TomMaine View Post
You're putting up a great fight, Chall. But I think the war is won.

Blogs are like Facebook pages, a good moment here, a bad moment there. They prove, people are weird.

I'm with your wife, babies and kids are hard to sail with! Then they are not,...then they are,...

It's hard to explain, unless you've done it. There's my 'blog' on the subject.
A War?

Hey people seem to think because I won't join the righteously indignant tut-tutting castigation brigade, and because I keep correcting people in the middle of their rants that thereby I am in agreement with everything Rebel Heart did.

I have never said that.
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